If Operation Barbarossa wasn't launched, Would've Nazi Germany won WWII?

[æRLO]

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He committed suicide with braun. Dont say poor girl. If braun was captured by russians, im sure death was the better option for her.

The entire Red Army will have their way with her, as she was Hitler's most well-known woman.

[machinecult]

OOT: One way to ruin a decent thread about history is when socio-Marxists inject their placard-style claims of the heroism of their favored party and the incompetence of the "other" (as usual, the Americans).

Moving on...

OT: Hitler might (also) have invaded Russia envisioning General Karl Haushofer of uniting Germany, Russia, and other Asiatic nations. Haushofer had a keen interest in Asian cultures.

General Karl Haushofer (1869-1946)

- he had been a general in the German army during WW1; he spent time in Japan as military attache and had been greatly impressed by the energy, social discipline and the devotion to duty (bushido) of Japanese people.

- he turned to academic life after the war and especially made geopolitics his life’s work. In his development of geopolitics, he brought together the ideas of Ratzel, Kjellén and Mackinder.

- he saw geopolitics as being applied geography; he thought that a major cause of Germany’s defeat was the lack of geographical knowledge and geopolitical awareness; because of this lack, Germany found itself in the war with its particular alignment of allies and enemies and this brought its defeat. (For example, he argued that Germany should never allow itself to be lined up against Russia—the heartland.)

- to try to correct this lack, he founded a geopolitical institute at the University of Munich and in his development of geopolitical theory, he drew on all these thinkers.

- Haushofer had taught Rudolph Hess and they became close friends. Haushofer came to be seen later in the 1930s and during the war, as providing many, perhaps most, of the geopolitical ideas for the Nazis. As a result, his influence was greatly exaggerated.

- Haushofer did publicise the concept of lebensraum, but that term was used by many others, including the Volkisch fanatics and racists who were much more direct connections to the Nazis.

- Haushofer did try to influence the Nazis, and Hess was a pipeline into the Nazi inner circles. As the Nazis gained influence and then came to power, Haushofer tried to soft-pedal the areas where his ideas differed from the Nazis. The Nazis set up their own ‘geopolitical’ think tanks and organisations; probably with Hess’ influence, Haushofer was given a role and some leadership positions. But the Nazis wanted to Nazify everything and that included ‘geopolitical theory’. They began to point out the shortcomings and ‘errors’ of Haushofer’s geopolitics; increasingly, he was shoved out. In fact, by the outbreak of the war, he was really out of it completely.

- Haushofer was not a racist. In fact, his wife was half Jewish. As a result of Hess’ intervention, she was given ‘honorary German’ status, but that was unacceptable to the anti-Semitic fanatics in the Nazi party when such marriages had been made illegal by the Nuremburg Laws.

- Nazi geopoliticians rejected Haushofer’s geopolitics because it failed to incorporate the ‘race principle’ adequately. Like Ratzel, at base Haushofer was a geographical determinist and argued that people cannot escape their geography. The Nazi racists, on the other hand, argued that the major determinants of history and almost everything was genes and genetic heritage— ‘race’; genes could even nullify geography.

- following Mackinder’s heartland theory, Haushofer thought that Germany’s best course was to ally itself (or at least remain on good terms) with Russia. As noted, he thought that the estrangement with Russia had been a major blunder and factor in Germany’s defeat in WW1. He was pleased with the axis alliance with Japan, and then when the Non-Aggression Pact was signed with the Soviet Union, he felt that things were definitely on the right track. Although he did not like the Soviet Union, he thought it was flying in the face of geographical laws to be in conflict with the heartland power. As a partner, Germany would be left to dominate the central and western European part of the ‘world island’. Japan was striving to build its own empire in south Asia and could act as a buffer at the eastern end. Japan would also act as a distraction for the U.S. and keep it from interfering in what went on in Europe.

- Haushofer was dismayed by Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union and that confirmed his withdrawal from active participation. In any case, Hess’ famous flight to Britain to try to arrange a peace between Germany and Britain would have ended his role.

- Haushofer’s son, Albrecht, was also a geopolitical activist. He was never a member of the Nazi Party, but he was an advisor of Ribbontrop. Ribbontrop had supported the idea of an alliance with Britain, which Hitler too toyed with from time to time. Albrecht made many trips to Britain in the late 1930s to cultivate contacts and to canvas the possibilities. He became even more disillusioned with Hitler as the war and Hitler’s policies evolved; Albrecht began a double game of working with the opposition. He was tied into the assassination plot against Hitler and after hiding out for some months, was captured by the Gestapo late in 1944 and murdered along with other remaining plotters in April 1945, just before the end of the war. source: Geopolitics

Another source:
Karl Haushofer. An English Translation of Major General Karl Ernst Haushofer's Geopolitics of the Pacific Ocean and Studies in the Relationship Between Geography and History.

Now my question is, if this operation wasn't launched, and Germany maintained the Alliance with Russia until they eliminated France, UK and the US- Germany would've won this war, right? So what would the world looked like under Nazi/ Fascist rule?

We would be under an evil regime, speaking German and planting potatoes for the Germans ( If they allowed us to live) Since Hitler's plan was to depopulate non-Aryan races e.g. Asians, Negros, Indians, Jewish, Malays, etc... And start a new world order, the Aryan race repopulation.

Some pictures of Asians working for the Reich.

Turkministan Volunteers


Ostlegionen (literally "Eastern Legions") or Osttruppen ("Eastern Troops") were conscripts and volunteers from the occupied eastern territories recruited into the German Army of the Third Reich during the Second World War.









Not to be confused with the Kuomintang (Chinese Nationalists who wore German helmets "stahlhelm") These are part of the Wehrmacht.








The Nazis might have been racial in regards to preserving their own culture and heritage but they were not not entirely xenophobic.

[Ramini]

hahaha!!! OKH or OKW might've allowed foreigners to enter their ranks..but unsaon nlang ang mga SS..hahaha!! they don't like other races mixing with pure germanic blood!..if the war favoured germany the SS would soon eat up OKH or OKW or render it a puppet military arm..the local geman army might take a bit longer to assimilate..it's gonna be like the SA all over again.

TO the topic: Operation Barbarossa is an inevitable event...Hitler's original plan was to bring Britain to it's knees or broker a separate peace (that's why Dunkirk happened) then attack Russia...Russia is Hitler's ulitmate goal..it was clearly stated in his book Russia's main purpose is for Lebensraum..Operation Barbarossa is not that difficult to realize even if it's scope is monumental..if Hitler only listened to his seasoned generals..and followed their tactical advises..im pretty sure the only problem hitler would encounter is his supply lines..he had the best military strategists and soldiers who had real training during the Spanish civil war..

The Nazis might have been racial in regards to preserving their own culture and heritage but they were not not entirely xenophobic.

dinha rako mutuo nmo brad if naai hapon or asiano nga part sa SS...the OKW and OKH is not the creme dela creme of the Nazi war machine..nindot lang silag mga generals which were the best. Hitler doesn't really trust the local german military..he has his own army im sure if the Nazis won the war the SS will eat up all of the other german military groups.

[machinecult]

dinha rako mutuo nmo brad if naai hapon or asiano nga part sa SS...the OKW and OKH is not the creme dela creme of the Nazi war machine..nindot lang silag mga generals which were the best. Hitler doesn't really trust the local german military..he has his own army im sure if the Nazis won the war the SS will eat up all of the other german military groups.

As I said 'not entirely' pero kung SS na kana hinuon murag impossible jud na. Then again kung sila ni puli sa Wehrmacht maglisod na sila tungod sa impracticality sa ideology nila.

[Ramini]

As I said 'not entirely' pero kung SS na kana hinuon murag impossible jud na. Then again kung sila ni puli sa Wehrmacht maglisod na sila tungod sa impracticality sa ideology nila.

The Nazis are a xenophobic and a homophobic bunch..these people probably broke in because of military alliances or para ma bolster lang ang ranks..even though OKW and OKH were under Hilter they're not yet real Nazis they're just bound to hitler by oath and a lot of german generals aren't full nazis... though most of the Wermacht soldiers are nazis but not all of them (watch the Pianist for proof) unlike the SS na you're a hitler stooge jd down to your atomic level..so i'd say that the german military might be racial but not xenophobic entirely and might not be entirely racial too hehe!.

Well that's just how i see the Wermacht i hope you agree with me on this..the Wermacht doesn't entirely equate to the pure Nazi armada..i've read a considerable amount of WWII books and i seem to notice that there's actually two german military arms during WWII..OKH and OKW which is under hitler and the generals and then there's the SS or the Einsatzgruppen who're exclusively under hitler and his devout nazi stooges. The Wermacht is exclusively for military and to some degree occupational force. I've never seen a OKW or OKH general run a jewish camp or became a Gauleiter it's always an SS official. So i'd say na naahat lang ning Wermacht..kai ang ilang Commander in Chief kai racist, homophobic ug xenophobic man..so sunod lang ni sila..they just "work" for a Nazi but not all of them are nazis.. and during those times you don't have to be a nazi to be an anti-semite or racists..most people hated the jews.

As for ideologies, the SA and the SS had the same ideology but what did the SS do to the SA?..then that's the answer..bsta sugo gani ni hitler..sunod jd dayon ask questions later.

[machinecult]

The Nazis are a xenophobic and a homophobic bunch..these people probably broke in because of military alliances or para ma bolster lang ang ranks..even though OKW and OKH were under Hilter they're not yet real Nazis they're just bound to hitler by oath and a lot of german generals aren't full nazis... though most of the Wermacht soldiers are nazis but not all of them (watch the Pianist for proof) unlike the SS na you're a hitler stooge jd down to your atomic level..so i'd say that the german military might be racial but not xenophobic entirely and might not be entirely racial too. Well that's just how i see the Wermacht i hope you agree with me on this..the Wermacht doesn't entirely equate to the pure Nazi armada..i've read a considerable amount of WWII books and i seem to notice that there's actually two german military arms during WWII..OKH and OKW which is under hitler and the generals and then there's the SS or the Einsatzgruppen who're exclusively under hitler and his devout nazi stooges.

As for ideologies, the SA and the SS had the same ideology but what did the SS do to the SA?..then that's the answer..bsta sugo gani ni hitler..sunod jd dayon ask questions later.

But the Hitlerjugend and the SA had homosexuals in their ranks. Ernst Rohm for instance. Though by ideological stance were illegal, it existed among them and is practiced by several of its members nonetheless.

[Ramini]

But the Hitlerjugend and the SA had homosexuals in their ranks. Ernst Rohm for instance. Though by ideological stance were illegal, it existed among them and is practiced by several of its members nonetheless.

for me Ernest Rohm wasn't really a homosexual if he was a homosexual..he was killed not because of his homosexuality..he was killed because of this influence over the SA which hitler is envious of..that's why he established his own military arm..the SS..the SA was i think the NSDAP's acquired military arm..and hitler was not an original member of the NSDAP..Homosexuality and other things that is considered unNazi..is and will always be subjective..if hitler allows it or one his powerful stooges then it is allowed..sila man gani na mao nag una2x sa so called pure na qualities sa usa ka true aryan/nordic german is tall, blue eyes, blonde then tan-awa si hitler and his main stooges neither of them are blonde, tall or have blue eyes..except nlang cguro ni Heydrich..ideologies are just there for show.

[Ramini]

But the Hitlerjugend and the SA had homosexuals in their ranks. Ernst Rohm for instance. Though by ideological stance were illegal, it existed among them and is practiced by several of its members nonetheless.

for me Ernest Rohm wasn't really a homosexual if he was a homosexual..he was killed not because of his homosexuality..he was killed because of this influence over the SA which hitler is envious of..that's why he established his own military arm..the SS..the SA was i think the NSDAP's acquired military arm..and hitler was not an original member of the NSDAP..Homosexuality and other things that is considered unNazi..is and will always be subjective..if hitler allows it or one his powerful stooges then it is allowed..sila man gani na mao nag una2x sa so called pure na qualities sa usa ka true aryan/nordic german is tall, blue eyes, blonde then tan-awa si hitler and his main stooges neither of them are blonde, tall or have blue eyes..except nlang cguro ni Heydrich..ideologies are just there for show.

[æRLO]

But the Hitlerjugend and the SA had homosexuals in their ranks. Ernst Rohm for instance. Though by ideological stance were illegal, it existed among them and is practiced by several of its members nonetheless.

It has already been established that many of the Nazi officials were not aligned with its ideology. I can only name a handful who can be considered as "perfect" Nazis. The Germans also utilized the "ost" volunteers out of necessity, as it is beneficial and easier to raise units from occupied territories and use them to garrison there--but were they given the same treatment as core Wehrmacht/SS troops? no. Most Osttrupen were from Belorussia and Poland, and some joined because of the Soviet's maltreatment--rarely did they join because they aligned with Nazi ideology.

NOTE: The Einsatzgruppen is one among the many wings under the SS, and essentially they were "clean up" squads. The OKH is technically speaking under the OKW, but the Heer had commanders who frequently operated autonomously from the OKW, and Hitler would frequently bypass the OKW command to delegate OKH.

Also in a way, SA was Hitler's way to patch things up with the regular army. Thus, 'Nacht der langen Messer' was serious brownie points for Hitler and the SS from the Reichswehr/Wehrmacht. Two-birds with one stone for the SS.

[machinecult]

^ The battle of ideology versus necessity. This is exactly what I'm saying. They could not always walk their talk because they simply can't. To imagine if the Nazis won, would they launch an operation to eliminate other races of people? I would have to say 'no'.