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Are the Dead Really Dead?


This discussion is about "Are the Dead Really Dead?" in the "The Devout" forums.
Originally Posted by cptn_star lucifer a.k.a satan, is one of the high ranking angels in heaven..as we commonly perceive him as ugly, and has a ...

  1. #31
    C.I.A. akosabni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptn_star View Post
    lucifer a.k.a satan, is one of the high ranking angels in heaven..as we commonly perceive him as ugly, and has a very frightening look, satan is indeed good looking since he is an angel, he was part of the group of worshipper angels but his pride of having a high rank made him think that he can outpower God that is why he was cast out along with the other angels who supported his side...he, then, is a fallen angel...
    thanks for replying, but what are angels? if they are purely spirit then must be part of god ... or am i wrong?

  2. #32
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    don't ask someone who obviously has not seen an angel himself. they're just telling you what their religion has taught them.

  3. #33
    C.I.A. treize's Avatar
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    what angels or lucifer gotta do with dead people?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    Resurrection means resurrected.
    Just to clarify what resurection means here is the definition:
    1.The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.
    2.The state of one who has returned to life.

    Resurected means that the person dies and lived returning to life as he was before. Not in a spirit form.
    When Jesus was resurected he was not in Spirit form.

    Obviously Elijah did not die but was taken to heaven. That is why he was able to talk to Jesus.
    About moses that is a good question. If you refer to Jude 1:9 it is believed Moses was resurected by the Archangel Micheal that would explain why Moses appeared before Jesus.

    when lazarus was resurected he resurected not in Spirit but in the Flesh. .
    Moses was resurrected? Where does it ever say that. Clearly Jesus said the resurrection will not occur until the last day.1Tthess. 4:16-18, you know that..

    Jude 1:99
    But when the archangel Michael contended with the devil and disputed about the body of Moses, he did not dare to bring a condemnation of slander* against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’


    Is it telling us the resurrection of moses? i dont think so...

    Well, that's the SDA claim that archangel michael is Jesus himself..



    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    As you can see I am not only refering to a single verse.



    I wanna add these verse

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    It would highly be an oxy*****ic if in your case people goes to heaven when they die and at the last trupet go back to their bodies in the grave and go back to heaven again. And those people burning in hell at the time of death and when the last trumpet sound they go back to their bodies judged by God and sent back to hell again. Even common people can make better scheduling plans than that.

    As what it says here Gods people would be resurrected and judged at the last trumpet. Not at the time of death.
    Can you please show my post stating people goes directly to heaven when they die?

    while old testament saint are in heaven now (Hebrews 12:1). when we die we will go to a place called abraham's bosom or paradise.. not yet heaven.. just like where the thief is going with Jesus.. and for three days Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19).

    How can Christ preach the souls in paradise/abraham's bosom for three days if they are all sleeping?

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    when we die we will go to a place called abraham's bosom or paradise.. not yet heaven.. just like where the thief is going with Jesus.. and for three days Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19).
    1 Peter 3:19
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
    in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
    Your question
    Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between
    His crucifixion and resurrection?


    No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 1 in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalm 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)
    Last edited by Kenshiro; 02-24-2010 at 04:30 PM.

  6. #36
    C.I.A. epoyking's Avatar
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    lisod mani tubagon ... d man pwede magpa-patay2 gud

  7. #37
    C.I.A. cptn_star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblazer 2.1 View Post
    don't ask someone who obviously has not seen an angel himself. they're just telling you what their religion has taught them.
    our faith is not established on the things that are perceivable by earthly eyes...it would be so much better to look forward of something not seen than to be blinded by the things that stand right before your very eyes..

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    Moses, Elijah and Enoch are resurected. These people are the exemptions. That were specified in the Bible. They are not part of the last trumpet since they are already resurected.

    In Jude 1:9 - Micheal clearly claimed/"disputed" the "soul" of moses? Can you clarify if it is "soul" or the the "body" of Moses that the archangel micheal is disputing?
    Do you know In the Bible the Body and soul are two different things. ?
    Yes the Body and soul are two different things..

    can you please guide me again about these exempted people? where it is specified in the bible?

    remember these people died/vanished before Jesus was born, if they are resurected before Jesus christ died then there must be something wrong with the scripture? the bible is clear that Jesus had to be the first one to be resurrected to eternal life.

    Moses, Elijah and Enoch are included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) among the fathers who obtained a good report through faith; but "ALL these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39). What promise? The "hope of eternal life. Like every true saint, they are awaiting the hope of the resurrection and the return of Christ (Jude 14, 15).

    Elijah and Enoch are not, as we saw in Hebrews 11, exceptions. They too died (Heb. 11:13, 39), although they had previously experienced a miraculous “transference” by divine intervention.

    I guess its not right to say, they are not part of the last trumpet since they are already resurected. well, i didnt say you were misguided.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    We go to abrahams bussom when we die? This is even more out of line. You are clearly misguided if you believe it literally. For reasons that are obvous. In literal terms can we all people literally fit in abrahams bussom? Plus it is a Parable which uses symbolic subjects in the story. It is not to be taken literally.
    It seems to me that your the one who has a literal thingking about abrahams bosom. how did you know that all people will not fit in abrahams bosom? have you been there that you know how small it is? did you know that abrahams bosom has two separate parts? paradise on the other side and a place of torment on the other side for the wicked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    Your question
    Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection?

    No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 1 in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalm 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)
    The bottom line here is Jesus spirit is preaching between His crucifixion and resurrection, and His spirit is not asleep.

    With all due respect sir, you are entitled in your own interpretation and i respected that. well i am not that good as you are.
    Last edited by necrotic freak; 02-22-2010 at 04:41 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by necrotic freak View Post
    Yes the Body and soul are two

    different things..

    can you please guide me again about these exempted people?

    where it is specified in the bible?

    remember these people died/vanished before Jesus was born, if

    they are resurected before Jesus christ died then there must

    be something wrong with the scripture? the bible is clear that

    Jesus had to be the first one to be resurrected to eternal

    life.

    Moses, Elijah and Enoch are included by Paul (in Hebrews 11)

    among the fathers who obtained a good report through faith;

    but "ALL these, having obtained a good report through faith,

    received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39). What promise? The

    "hope of eternal life. Like every true saint, they are

    awaiting the hope of the resurrection and the return of Christ

    (Jude 14, 15).

    Elijah and Enoch are not, as we saw in Hebrews 11, exceptions.

    They too died (Heb. 11:13, 39), although they had previously

    experienced a miraculous “transference” by divine

    intervention.

    I guess its not right to say, they are not part of the last

    trumpet since they are already resurected. well, i didnt say

    you were misguided.
    Here are the prophets that are the exemptions of the last ressurection with Biblical evidences. Im basing this on evidences and circumstances not what my pastor or priest told me.
    Well in the Bible it clearly says Elijah did not experience death. Because in the Bible there is no text that he died.
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Departure
    The biblical story of Elijah's departure is unique. Elijah, in
    company with Elisha (Eliseus), approaches the Jordan. He rolls
    up his mantle and strikes the water (2 Kings 2:. The water
    immediately divides and Elijah and Elisha cross on dry land.
    Suddenly, a chariot of fire and horses of fire appear and
    Elijah is lifted up to heaven in a whirlwind. As Elijah is
    lifted up, his mantle falls to the ground and Elisha picks it
    up.
    If you have a clear thinking to why Elijah did appear to Jesus at the transfiguration, then this verse is the best explanation.
    So its a no brainer why he appeared at the transfiguration.

    Enoch
    Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    Moses
    Jude 1:9 -
    Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
    disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him
    a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
    This best explains Moses was resurrected by the archangel Micheal.

    They are already in Heaven obviously I have to say that thay are not part of the last day resurrection since they are already in heaven. They even talked to Jesus at the transfiguration. See transfiguration of Jesus.

    It seems to me that your the one who has a literal thingking about abrahams bosom. how did you know that all people will not fit in abrahams bosom? have you been there

    that you know how small it is? did you know that abrahams

    bosom has two separate parts? paradise on the other side and a place of torment on the other side for the wicked?
    Abrahams bossom is symbolic.
    The bottom line here is Jesus spirit is preaching between His crucifixion and resurrection, and His spirit is not asleep.
    With all due respect sir, you are entitled in your own interpretation and i respected that. well i am not that good as you are.
    Tell me where could Jesus have been preaching. did he went to the past and preached to the old saints? between his resurrection and crucifiction did he went to heaven preached to the saints who are already in heaven came back to earth get resurrected and went to heaven again?
    You interpretations are distorted and It makes no sense.

    The verse about the old prophets not saved it is because Jesus has not yet died and risen on the cross during their time. When Jesus paid for our sin you have to understand that his sacrifice is not only for the new testament prophets but for all humanity and that includes the old testament prophets and people who believed in God. Eph 2:7

    Bro This is what Heb 11:13, 39 really means.
    They are not yet saved since Christ has not risen during their time. When Christ has risen he saved humanity For those who believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. It reiterates that Christ is the savior of humanity even those before he come to earth.

    Here is your reference:
    * Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke

    2:4-7)
    * Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23) as a

    descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1;

    Galatians 3:16), of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke

    3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14), and of the house of David (2 Samuel

    7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
    * Herod killing the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16

    -1
    * Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
    * Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist)

    (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
    * Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-

    17)
    * Preached good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
    * Performed miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
    * Cleansed the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
    * Ministered in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16)
    * Entered Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9;

    Matthew 21:4-9)
    * First presented Himself as King 173,880 days from the

    decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
    * Rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; 1 Peter 2:7)
    * Died a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53)

    involving: rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,4,

    betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:1,

    sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-

    15), silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-

    14), being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31), beaten

    (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26), spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew

    27:30), piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew

    27:31), being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew

    27:3, praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke

    23:34), piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34), given

    gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke

    23:36), no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36), buried

    in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60), casting

    lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24).
    * Rose from the dead! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
    * Ascended into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
    * Sat down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews

    1:3)
    Old testament prophets are saved because they believed in the prophecy of the death and resurrection of Christ for our salvation.

    During these times they even already know about the prophecy of Christ so why would they need to be preached when they already know and believed about Christ death, resurrection and salvation?

    abrahams bosom is not to be taken literally. Since it is a parable. It uses symbols like abrahams bosom and hades. But it literally does not mean supernatural bosom of abraham or in greek mytholgy hades.

    What it really means is that Rich man represents Christians and poor man is the lost. It simply means that the poor man needs a drop of water to quench his thirst the drop of water means the gospel. So basically Christians should share the Gospel to the lost or end up in Hell like the Richman in the Parable.

    You know this translation about sharing the Gospel to the lost gives me more insight rather than believing a supernatural parable literally.

    There is no reason to believe literally in abrahams bosom. If you do so it is called blind obedience.
    Last edited by Kenshiro; 02-24-2010 at 04:46 PM.

  10. #40
    Elite Member SEED OF LIBER's Avatar
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    Are the Dead Really Dead?
    The death of the body is the man's second birth.

    - sol

    " Are Muted User really Muted? "

    ty.

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