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Are the Dead Really Dead?


This discussion is about "Are the Dead Really Dead?" in the "The Devout" forums.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of ...

  1. #21
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    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
    The context shows that this verse is not speaking about soul sleep, just as “they have no more reward” is not denying the resurrection of the dead. To show that the author of Ecclesiastes did not believe in soul sleep, one can cite the following verse from the same book:
    The dead know nothing. So does it mean the dead can roam anywhere and visit living people? It says it knows nothing so it means it knows nothing including its past. In other words they are asleep. Since it knows nothing and it has no capability to haunt other people.

    One thing when you refer to a soul does it mean its a concious soul? The breath of life is similar to a soul. It is a breath from god. And it will return to god once a person dies. It doesnt say that the particular soul is concious.

  2. #22
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    pakamatay daw mo aron ma sayod...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by emailroy2002 View Post
    pakamatay daw mo aron ma sayod...
    Ill stick what the Bible say. You can go ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    The dead know nothing. So does it mean the dead can roam anywhere and visit living people? It says it knows nothing so it means it knows nothing including its past. In other words they are asleep. Since it knows nothing and it has no capability to haunt other people.


    One thing when you refer to a soul does it mean its a concious soul? The breath of life is similar to a soul. It is a breath from god. And it will return to god once a person dies. It doesnt say that the particular soul is concious.
    One of the most dramatic events that weighs on this issue was that of Jesus' transfiguration (see Matt. 17:1-8; Mark 9:2-8; Luke 9:28-36; and 2 Pet. 1:16-1. Peter, James, and John all personally heard the voice of God and witnessed the visible appearance of Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. The obvious problem for Soul Sleep advocates is to explain how Moses, who had died centuries before (see Deut. 34:5, 6), could suddenly appear and converse with Jesus and Elijah (Elijah had not died but was taken to heaven in a fiery chariot--see 2 Kings 2:11).

    Perhaps Jesus' classic statement in this regard was when He received the news of His friend Lazarus' death. Told by his sister Martha of her brother's demise Jesus comforted and answered her by stating, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    Ill stick what the Bible say. You can go ahead.
    then please give me a verses that will defend soul sleep other than the infamous SDA verse Ecclesiastes 9:5?

  6. #26
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    hebrews 9:27

    for it is destined for men to die once, and after that, the judgement..

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by akosabni View Post
    @TS ... does god also produces bad breath? i mean where did satan's spirit come from?

    this is amazing in did, can't say that these are facts though
    lucifer a.k.a satan, is one of the high ranking angels in heaven..as we commonly perceive him as ugly, and has a very frightening look, satan is indeed good looking since he is an angel, he was part of the group of worshipper angels but his pride of having a high rank made him think that he can outpower God that is why he was cast out along with the other angels who supported his side...he, then, is a fallen angel...

  8. #28
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    E try if unsa gani, tapos igna mi ..hehehe

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by necrotic freak View Post
    One of the most dramatic events that weighs on this issue was that of Jesus' transfiguration (see Matt. 17:1-8; Mark 9:2-8; Luke 9:28-36; and 2 Pet. 1:16-1. Peter, James, and John all personally heard the voice of God and witnessed the visible appearance of Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. The obvious problem for Soul Sleep advocates is to explain how Moses, who had died centuries before (see Deut. 34:5, 6), could suddenly appear and converse with Jesus and Elijah (Elijah had not died but was taken to heaven in a fiery chariot--see 2 Kings 2:11).

    Perhaps Jesus' classic statement in this regard was when He received the news of His friend Lazarus' death. Told by his sister Martha of her brother's demise Jesus comforted and answered her by stating, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies."
    Resurrection means resurrected.
    Just to clarify what resurection means here is the definition:
    1.The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.
    2.The state of one who has returned to life.

    Resurected means that the person dies and lived returning to life as he was before. Not in a spirit form.
    When Jesus was resurected he was not in Spirit form.

    Obviously Elijah did not die but was taken to heaven. That is why he was able to talk to Jesus.
    About moses that is a good question. If you refer to Jude 1:9 it is believed Moses was resurected by the Archangel Micheal that would explain why Moses appeared before Jesus.

    when lazarus was resurected he resurected not in Spirit but in the Flesh.

    then please give me a verses that will defend soul sleep other than the infamous SDA verse Ecclesiastes 9:5?
    As you can see I am not only refering to a single verse.

    Upon the fundamental error of natural immortality rests the doctrine of consciousness in death--a doctrine, like eternal torment, opposed to the teachings of the Scriptures, to the dictates of reason, and to our feelings of humanity. According to the popular belief, the redeemed in heaven are acquainted with all that takes place on the earth and especially with the lives of the friends whom they have left behind. But how could it be a source of happiness to the dead to know the troubles of the living, to witness the sins committed by their own loved ones, and to see them enduring all the sorrows, disappointments, and anguish of life? How much of heaven's bliss would be enjoyed by those who were hovering over their friends on earth? And how utterly revolting is the belief that as soon as the breath leaves the body the soul of the impenitent is consigned to the flames of hell! To what depths of anguish must those be plunged who see their friends passing to the grave unprepared, to enter upon an eternity of woe and sin! Many have been driven to insanity by this harrowing thought.

    What say the Scriptures concerning these things? David declares that man is not conscious in death. "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4. Solomon bears the same testimony: "The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything." "Their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.

    When, in answer to his prayer, Hezekiah's life was prolonged fifteen years, the grateful king rendered to God a tribute of praise for His great mercy. In this song he tells the reason why he thus rejoices: "The grave cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee, as I do this day." Isaiah 38:18, 19. Popular theology represents the righteous dead as in heaven, entered into bliss and praising God with an immortal tongue; but Hezekiah could see no such glorious prospect in death. With his words agrees the testimony of the psalmist: "In death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?" "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalms 6:5; 115:17.

    Peter on the Day of Pentecost declared that the patriarch David "is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. The fact that David remains in the grave until the resurrection proves that the righteous do not go to heaven at death. It is only through the resurrection, and by virtue of the fact that Christ has risen, that David can at last sit at the right hand of God.

    And said Paul: "If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." I Corinthians 15:16-18. If for four thousand years the righteous had gone directly to heaven at death, how could Paul have said that if there is no resurrection,"they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished"? No resurrection would be necessary.

    The martyr Tyndale, referring to the state of the dead, declared: "I confess openly, that I am not persuaded that they be already in the full glory that Christ is in, or the elect angels of God are in. Neither is it any article of my faith; for if it were so, I see not but then the preaching of the resurrection of the flesh were a thing in vain."--William Tyndale, Preface to New Testament (ed. 1534). Reprinted in British Reformers--Tindal, Frith, Barnes, page 349.

    It is an undeniable fact that the hope of immortal blessedness at death has led to a widespread neglect of the Bible doctrine of the resurrection. This tendency was remarked by Dr. Adam Clarke, who said: "The doctrine of the resurrection appears to have been thought of much more consequence among the primitive Christians than it is now! How is this? The apostles were continually insisting on it, and exciting the followers of God to diligence, obedience, and cheerfulness through it. And their successors in the present day seldom mention it! So apostles preached, and so primitive Christians believed; so we preach, and so our hearers believe. There is not a doctrine in the gospel on which more stress is laid; and there is not a doctrine in the present system of preaching which is treated with more neglect!"--Commentary, remarks on I Corinthians 15, paragraph 3.

    This has continued until the glorious truth of the resurrection has been almost wholly obscured and lost sight of by the Christian world. Thus a leading religious writer, commenting on the words of Paul in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, says: "For all practical purposes of comfort the doctrine of the blessed immortality of the righteous takes the place for us of any doubtful doctrine of the Lord's second coming. At our death the Lord comes for us. That is what we are to wait and watch for. The dead are already passed into glory. They do not wait for the trump for their judgment and blessedness."
    I wanna add these verse

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    It would highly be an oxy*****ic if in your case people goes to heaven when they die and at the last trupet go back to their bodies in the grave and go back to heaven again. And those people burning in hell at the time of death and when the last trumpet sound they go back to their bodies judged by God and sent back to hell again. Even common people can make better scheduling plans than that.

    As what it says here Gods people would be resurrected and judged at the last trumpet. Not at the time of death.
    Last edited by Kenshiro; 02-20-2010 at 05:06 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
    Resurrection means resurrected.
    Just to clarify what resurection means here is the definition:
    1.The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.
    2.The state of one who has returned to life.

    Resurected means that the person dies and lived returning to life as he was before. Not in a spirit form.
    When Jesus was resurected he was not in Spirit form.

    Obviously Elijah did not die but was taken to heaven. That is why he was able to talk to Jesus.
    About moses that is a good question. If you refer to Jude 1:9 it is believed Moses was resurected by the Archangel Micheal that would explain why Moses appeared before Jesus.

    when lazarus was resurected he resurected not in Spirit but in the Flesh.


    As you can see I am not only refering to a single verse.



    I wanna add these verse

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    It would highly be an oxy*****ic if in your case people goes to heaven when they die and at the last trupet go back to their bodies in the grave and go back to heaven again. And those people burning in hell at the time of death and when the last trumpet sound they go back to their bodies judged by God and sent back to hell again. Even common people can make better scheduling plans than that.

    As what it says here Gods people would be resurrected and judged at the last trumpet. Not at the time of death.
    well said....

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