Second Look on Islam

[kalanrakas]

Quote: Originally Posted by Malic One of the distinctive characteristics of the times we live in is the overwhelming presence of violence in our societies. Whether it is a bomb going off in a market place, or the hijacking of an aircraft where innocent people are held at ransom to achieve political ends, we live in an age, where the manipulation and loss of innocent lives has become commonplace. Such is the all-pervasive nature of indiscriminate violence, that “terrorism” is considered as one of the prime threats to peace and security in our societies. The word terrorism came into wide usage only a few decades ago. One of the unfortunate results of this new terminology is that it limits the definition of terrorism to that perpetrated by small groups or individuals. Terrorism, in fact, spans the entire world, and manifests itself in various forms. Its perpetrators do not fit any stereotype. Those who hold human lives cheap, and have the power to expend human lives, appear at different levels in our societies. Read more hit this link...877-WHY-ISLAM Website - Your Resource to Valuable Information on Islam typed it if dili mag work ang link, tnx!

Then it would not harm anyone also if i will point all to this article (Why We Critique Only Islam) at this link: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...only_islam.htm

It's not my site nor am I in anyway affiliated with it but they are presenting valid questions and a palatable challenge to Muslims.

Having laid that out, I apologize if I can't tag along in the ensuing discussions. Duty calls.

[Malic]

@kalankaras

To you maybe. But to me, it does matter and you should respect that. At this early stage i can see that its useless to go on and have a "healthy" conversation w/ you,you know why? You cant even give me a straight answer to an innocent question.

Sir did you read the article i posted, pls read it. And if you have much time pls visit the link i gave here.

Now about the link you gave, its true there are violent verses in the koran BUT its not only the Koran, the bible ALSO speaks of killing babies, plunders, grabbing lands that dont belong to them in the name of their God. One needs to understand the culture of that time,specially Middle eastern culture. David had cut the head of goliath,Moses and Joshua led an armies to conquer lands and in the process killed babies and civilians. Crusaders invaded lands in Europe, Priests did witch hunting but for most part killed innocent rich people. The God of the bible is a jealous God, ordered the hebrews to destroy pagan cities and images. I hope you get the picture now sir. As ive said earlier one have to understand the political and religious culture of that time as to avoid being put in a state of confusion.

Now in every religion there are always people who wants to interpret a religious principle to suit their needs and unfortunately Islam fundamentalists and extremist got a lot of sympathizers.

also most of the bombings are political in nature,they are just using religion to get some sympathy form islam.

I hope that with the education you have attained, you can distinguished what is extremism and orthodoxy.

[Malic]

Quote: Originally Posted by kalanrakas Then it would not harm anyone also if i will point all to this article (Why We Critique Only Islam) at this link: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...only_islam.htm It's not my site nor am I in anyway affiliated with it but they are presenting valid questions and a palatable challenge to Muslims. Having laid that out, I apologize if I can't tag along in the ensuing discussions. Duty calls.

again one needs to give a distinction between extremism and orthodoxy. Unfortunately my friend you are subscirbing data from people who are also being blinded by ignorance.


Muslims are zealous about their faith unfortnately because of politics some are hooking the innocent and over zealous muslims to parade in their cause.


You know why there are bickerings among North americans and some over zealous muslims? OIL.

[Malic]

Quote: Originally Posted by arubinkun Peace be unto you Sir Malic... thank you for opening up such thread... I just have a question... when a small group of muslim extremist call for Jihad, do they do it on their own or they consult with a higher authority? its sad that because of a small group of muslim extremist who just wants to start a war because they think its Muhammed's will affects each and every peace loving muslim in the whole world... is there a body that can rebuke those small groups of extremist and tell them to stop?

you see Islam have no heirarchy similar to christianity.

Nobody can tell them to stop. What moderate muslims can do is give the public a better understanding of the Koran and Muslim beliefs.

[Malic]

This is a response to what Kalankaras posted. Learn to distinguished orthodoxy and extremism.

Worldwide Muslim Condemnation of Terrorism
By Abdullah, www.whyIslam.org Associate

Prominent Muslim scholars, organizations and movements, representing the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, have repeatedly condemned terrorism, and have spoken out for peace and justice. Following is a very brief list of such open condemnation of terrorism, including statements issued in the wake of the heinous attacks on September 11.

1. The American Muslim Political Co-ordination Committee (AMPCC), which is a group of major American Muslim organizations, including ICNA (our parent organization), issued a statement on September 11, 2001 condemning the terrorist attacks. The AMPCC statement read in part:

"American Muslims utterly condemn what are vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

2. Major American Muslim organizations including the Islamic Circle of North America, are signatories to the following statement released on September 21, 2001.

American Muslim Response to the September Attacks

Released September 21, 2001

We, the undersigned Muslim organizations, support the President and Congress of the U.S. in the struggle against terrorism. Holding to the ideals of both our religion and our country, we condemn all forms of terrorism, and confirm the need for perpetrators of any such acts of violence to be brought to justice, including those who carried out the attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001.

At the same time, in the planning of this "war against terrorism," we call upon the President and Congress to reaffirm the values and principles that make this country great, namely that one is innocent until proven guilty, that all accused have the right to a fair trial, that no one be punished for the acts of another, and that respect for human life is supreme, regardless of race or religion. To this end, we urge the U.S. government not to abandon the due process of law in determining responsibility for the attacks and punishing the guilty parties.

We are saddened by the possibility of military action, as we do not believe that terrorism can be eliminated solely or even effectively through military force. Rather we call upon our leaders to recognize that in order to rid the world of the ugliness of terrorism, our nation must understand its root causes. We hold out the hope that these root causes can be addressed through non-violent means, in a way that promotes peace and harmony between the nations of the world.

Signed:
Afghan Muslim Association (Fremont, CA)
American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ)
American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism (AMILA)
Arab-American Congress, Council on American-Islamic Relations (Northern California)
Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) Bay Area
Islamic Networks Group (ING)
Islamic Society of the East Bay (Union City, CA)
Islamic Society of San Francisco
Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) West Zone
Muslim American Society
Muslim Community Association (MCA)
Muslim Peace Fellowship (Nyack, NY)
South Bay Islamic Association (San Jose, CA)
Zaytuna Institute (Hayward, CA)

3. Prominent scholars worldwide have condemned terrorism as a heresy against Islam. The Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar University, the oldest seat of Islamic learning, Sheikh Muhammed Sayyed Tantawi, has repeatedly condemned terrorism. He said in the name of Islamic law, he rejected and condemned the aggression against innocent civilian people, regardless of whatever side, sect or country the aggression came from. Prominent scholars of Saudi Arabia, Shaykh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah bin Baz and Shaykh Uthaimeen, also condemned the terrorist attacks. Every other major scholar of Islam, has come out against the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians.

Statements of Prominent Islamic Scholars

“Hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts"
- Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)

“The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)"
Sept. 27, 2001 fatwa, signed by:
- Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar)
- Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
- Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
- Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
- Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
- Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council

“Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime."
- Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London. Cited in Arab News, Sept. 28, 2001.

"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people."
- Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in NY Times, Sept. 28, 2001.

*Ingrid Mattson, a professor of Islamic studies and Muslim-Christian relations at Hartford Seminary in Hartford, said there was no basis in Islamic law or sacred text for Mr. bin Laden's remarks. "The basic theological distortion is that any means are permitted to achieve the end of protesting against perceived oppression."
- Dr. Ingrid Mattson, (President of the Islamic Society of North America)

Conclusion

Muslims stand united in their condemnation of terrorist attacks and any attempt to link their faith to heinous acts that question the humanity of the perpetrators. The vast majority of Muslims worldwide find in Islam, a faith that preaches devotion and good character, not one that calls for hatred towards fellow humans.

For more information, please call 1-877—WHY-ISLAM or email info@whyislam.org

[kalanrakas]

Quote: Originally Posted by Malic again one needs to give a distinction between extremism and orthodoxy. Unfortunately my friend you are subscirbing data from people who are also being blinded by ignorance. Muslims are zealous about their faith unfortnately because of politics some are hooking the innocent and over zealous muslims to parade in their cause. You know why there are bickerings among North americans and some over zealous muslims? OIL.

You presume too much.

My citing those websites does not mean that i subscribe to their ideas.

Learn to argue first. Being able to distinguish ideas cited by a person for the sake of argument from that person's personal beliefs is a step in the right direction.

Character assassination and labeling would not do well for an aspiring debater, Muslim or otherwise. In that case, you better leave the discussion of the good attributes of your religion to the true Islamic scholars.

It would be a disservice to Islam if you succumb to the ways of the extremists that you profess to abhor.

[kalanrakas]

Quote: Originally Posted by Malic you see Islam have no heirarchy similar to christianity. Nobody can tell them to stop. What moderate muslims can do is give the public a better understanding of the Koran and Muslim beliefs.

Would not it be better if you give these muslim extremists better understanding of the Koran and Muslim beliefs instead of pointing out to the non-Muslims the good virtues of Islam?

It is your duty to live by the teachings of your religion and to correct those in your religion who have gone astray. It is a lot better than issuing apologies after the carnage and yet doing nothing to change the misguided ways of those extremists.

[kalanrakas]

A second look on Islam should be made by Muslim extremists, not by non-believers who do not care to even give Islam a first look. What with all the murders done in its name.

I am sorry. I do not mean to agitate you or anybody. I just don't like you to jump into the conclusion that since I have cited some anti-Islam websites, those, too, are my beliefs. You have committed a falacy and it is fatal in argumentation and debate.

[Malic]

Quote: Originally Posted by kalanrakas You presume too much. My citing those websites does not mean that i subscribe to their ideas. Learn to argue first. Being able to distinguish ideas cited by a person for the sake of argument from that person's personal beliefs is a step in the right direction. Character assassination and labeling would not do well for an aspiring debater, Muslim or otherwise. In that case, you better leave the discussion of the good attributes of your religion to the true Islamic scholars. It would be a disservice to Islam if you succumb to the ways of the extremists that you profess to abhor.

Character assasination? can you point it our for me sir, dont accuse me of something that i never did.


I never said that you subscribe to the idea. Is that how you interpret my statement? Extreme man kaau ka ug mga interpretations sir sa akong mga statements.

Maybe na confuse ka sa word nga akong gigamit "subscribing", ang context ana sir is ni subscribe ka ni kuha ka ug idea from, not neccessarily nga motoo ka.

[Malic]

Quote: Originally Posted by kalanrakas Would not it be better if you give these muslim extremists better understanding of the Koran and Muslim beliefs instead of pointing out to the non-Muslims the good virtues of Islam? It is your duty to live by the teachings of your religion and to correct those in your religion who have gone astray. It is a lot better than issuing apologies after the carnage and yet doing nothing to change the misguided ways of those extremists.

We are doing just that sir.


dont worry, i am living by the teachings of my religion and others are also educating both muslims and non-muslims about orthodoxy.

[Malic]

Quote: Originally Posted by kalanrakas A second look on Islam should be made by Muslim extremists, not by non-believers who do not care to even give Islam a first look. What with all the murders done in its name. I am sorry. I do not mean to agitate you or anybody. I just don't like you to jump into the conclusion that since I have cited some anti-Islam websites, those, too, are my beliefs. You have committed a falacy and it is fatal in argumentation and debate.

A 2nd look on Islam covers both non-muslim and muslims. Why? because both groups are victims of politicians who wants to blame all these wars to muslims and misguided zeal of those honest followers of Islam.

[kalanrakas]

Quote: Originally Posted by Malic @kalankaras Now about the link you gave, its true there are violent verses in the koran BUT its not only the Koran, the bible ALSO speaks of killing babies, plunders, grabbing lands that dont belong to them in the name of their God. One needs to understand the culture of that time,specially Middle eastern culture. David had cut the head of goliath,Moses and Joshua led an armies to conquer lands and in the process killed babies and civilians. Crusaders invaded lands in Europe, Priests did witch hunting but for most part killed innocent rich people. The God of the bible is a jealous God, ordered the hebrews to destroy pagan cities and images. I hope you get the picture now sir. As ive said earlier one have to understand the political and religious culture of that time as to avoid being put in a state of confusion.

True. But last time I checked the news, it was not a Christian that bombed buildings in Baghdad and it was not a Christian that blew himself up before some American Embassy.

Christianity has its demons but the Christians dealt with them a long time ago. The world is still waiting for Muslims to deal with their own demons - those extremists that give Islam a bad name.

On another note, your religion should be able to stand on its own merits. What I mean is that the demons of other religions should not be used by you as a defense of Islam's weaknesses.

Again, I am not defending Christians here. Just citing some facts.

Malic, I respect you and I could imagine you as a friend. I mean, why not? This is just a forum discussion, right? But don't you feel that you still have a lot more to know about your religion and the art of argumentation and debate before you can competently open this kind of discussion in so public a forum?

Islam is one of the worlds greatest religions. Don't mar it.

[kalanrakas]

Quote: Originally Posted by Malic @kalankaras Now about the link you gave, its true there are violent verses in the koran BUT its not only the Koran, the bible ALSO speaks of killing babies, plunders, grabbing lands that dont belong to them in the name of their God. One needs to understand the culture of that time,specially Middle eastern culture. David had cut the head of goliath,Moses and Joshua led an armies to conquer lands and in the process killed babies and civilians. Crusaders invaded lands in Europe, Priests did witch hunting but for most part killed innocent rich people. The God of the bible is a jealous God, ordered the hebrews to destroy pagan cities and images. I hope you get the picture now sir. As ive said earlier one have to understand the political and religious culture of that time as to avoid being put in a state of confusion.

True. But last time I checked the news, it was not a Christian that bombed buildings in Baghdad and it was not a Christian that blew himself up before some American Embassy.

Christianity has its demons but the Christians dealt with them a long time ago. The world is still waiting for Muslims to deal with their own demons - those extremists that give Islam a bad name.

On another note, your religion should be able to stand on its own merits. What I mean is that the demons of other religions should not be used by you as a defense of Islam's weaknesses.

Again, I am not defending Christians here. Just citing some facts.

Malic, I respect you and I could imagine you as a friend. I mean, why not? This is just a forum discussion, right? But don't you feel that you still have a lot more to know about your religion and the art of argumentation and debate before you can competently open this kind of discussion in so public a forum?

Islam is one of the world's greatest religions. Don't mar it.

[kalanrakas]

Oh. Sorry for the double post. The server seemed too slow.