How to stop or solve the poverty in the Philippines?

[macrowide]

Quote: Originally Posted by Vince Russo You totally avoided the specifics of my hypothetical! A person on a FIXED (as in retirement) income will not realize any salary increase with Hyperwage. The "solutions" you offer above are meaningless, useless generalizations! The renter will be forced to fire his 2 helpers because he can't afford them. No one will pay a helper, maid, driver, handyman, security guard or gardener 20,000p per month! It's a ridiculous thought... Do YOU have a monthly rental to pay? Do you employ anyone, either in your home or in a business? I doubt that you do, because there's no way that the average person here can afford such ridiculous salaries. You rely on quotes from a book, and cannot speak from personal experience. Your suggestion to "get out of business.. don't worry, someone else will replace you" is some kind of solution? The application your Hyperwage Theory in the the hypothetical that I presented you with is COMICAL at best.. Try to plug YOUR OWN situation into your Hyperwage fantasy and see how it affects you. I guess the notion of mass layoffs is appealing to you, because that is exactly what would occur. And when the price of gas rose, many people were forced to radically adjust their lives, just to survive each month. Literally all prices on goods requiring shipping INCREASED. That's a good thing in your eyes?

Murag gi pun-an lang ug "0" ang kuwarta.

Lagi, non-linear.

[foolonthehill]

its a pity some people have trouble looking at the essence and get blindsided by certain minor aspects.

the reason I gave your the prescription formula from the book is that you will have know the GENERAL RULE.

That is the reason I didnt waste my time explaining to you how to resolve your specific problem.

BUt im not taking it against you. You are not the mind who composed hyperwage theory therefore we cannot expect your vision and understanding to be as deep as the inventor.

DONT let minor exceptions as the basis of a GENERAL RULE.

as for your fixed retirement income, you forgt SSS and GSIS benefits will also be increased! You didnt think of that?

I cant help you if you cant go beyond the tip of your nose.

Im not insulting you, I am just pointing where your analysis falls short.

Maybe we are not ready for a discussion at this deep thought called Hyperwage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vince Russo You totally avoided the specifics of my hypothetical! A person on a FIXED (as in retirement) income will not realize any salary increase with Hyperwage. The "solutions" you offer above are meaningless, useless generalizations! The renter will be forced to fire his 2 helpers because he can't afford them. No one will pay a helper, maid, driver, handyman, security guard or gardener 20,000p per month! It's a ridiculous thought... Do YOU have a monthly rental to pay? Do you employ anyone, either in your home or in a business? I doubt that you do, because there's no way that the average person here can afford such ridiculous salaries. You rely on quotes from a book, and cannot speak from personal experience. Your suggestion to "get out of business.. don't worry, someone else will replace you" is some kind of solution? The application your Hyperwage Theory in the the hypothetical that I presented you with is COMICAL at best.. Try to plug YOUR OWN situation into your Hyperwage fantasy and see how it affects you. I guess the notion of mass layoffs is appealing to you, because that is exactly what would occur. And when the price of gas rose, many people were forced to radically adjust their lives, just to survive each month. Literally all prices on goods requiring shipping INCREASED. That's a good thing in your eyes?

[foolonthehill]

My goodness!

Where did this line of reasoning come from?

It is very demeaning for anyone to even comment on this.

It's a pity.

Quote: Originally Posted by rickflag If Hyperwage will be realized I will apply as a driver for foolonthehill. Perhaps she'll pay me 40K a month then I have free board and lodging, tax free, etc. That would be a life. Hahahah

[foolonthehill]

If I will use my brains, I would follow the formula that says INCREASE PRICES. If the maids will get P20T, then the renter who is an ENGR will be receving P200T (did I answer you before? you didnt read it?)

I have answered you specifically, using my brain..

Quote: Originally Posted by Vince Russo You totally avoided the specifics of my hypothetical! A person on a FIXED (as in retirement) income will not realize any salary increase with Hyperwage. The "solutions" you offer above are meaningless, useless generalizations! The renter will be forced to fire his 2 helpers because he can't afford them. No one will pay a helper, maid, driver, handyman, security guard or gardener 20,000p per month! It's a ridiculous thought... Do YOU have a monthly rental to pay? Do you employ anyone, either in your home or in a business? I doubt that you do, because there's no way that the average person here can afford such ridiculous salaries. You rely on quotes from a book, and cannot speak from personal experience. Your suggestion to "get out of business.. don't worry, someone else will replace you" is some kind of solution? The application your Hyperwage Theory in the the hypothetical that I presented you with is COMICAL at best.. Try to plug YOUR OWN situation into your Hyperwage fantasy and see how it affects you. I guess the notion of mass layoffs is appealing to you, because that is exactly what would occur. And when the price of gas rose, many people were forced to radically adjust their lives, just to survive each month. Literally all prices on goods requiring shipping INCREASED. That's a good thing in your eyes?

[Vince Russo]

Quote: Originally Posted by foolonthehill its a pity some people have trouble looking at the essence and get blindsided by certain minor aspects. the reason I gave your the prescription formula from the book is that you will have know the GENERAL RULE. That is the reason I didnt waste my time explaining to you how to resolve your specific problem. BUt im not taking it against you. You are not the mind who composed hyperwage theory therefore we cannot expect your vision and understanding to be as deep as the inventor. DONT let minor exceptions as the basis of a GENERAL RULE. as for your fixed retirement income, you forgt SSS and GSIS benefits will also be increased! You didnt think of that? I cant help you if you cant go beyond the tip of your nose. Im not insulting you, I am just pointing where your analysis falls short. Maybe we are not ready for a discussion at this deep thought called Hyperwage.

As usual, you are claiming "intellectual high ground" whenever someone challenges Hype Theory.. You apparently worship the ground the author walks on, and that's okay for you. You refer to the ruination of peoples' lives as "minor exceptions".. SSS and GSIS benefits are already underfunded, and in case you haven't noticed, this country's government is in horrible shape financially. Just who do you think is going to fund SSS and GSIS to boost payment levels up so dramatically. Forget what you think of my intellectual level for a moment. Don't you think that greater minds than yours (or the author's) have been dealing with looking for a way to lessen the rampant poverty here? And yes, claiming that you are my intellectual superior IS insulting to me. You're overly confident in many ways, one of which is your intelligence level. You really believe that the solution for years of poverty lies in a book written by an unrecognized author of a theory who himself probably lives at or near the poverty level? If you want to learn about making more money, you should talk to someone who has made a lot of money and find out how THEY did it.

We have yet to discuss anything because you refrain from using your own experiences (other than your choice of insults) to debate any of the points I brought up. Talk to me when you've worked at a job for 20 years, earned a salary, owned houses, employed people and traveled a bit. Then we can talk as equals, with you speaking from actual EXPERIENCE, not merely quoting excerpts from a book you enjoy reading. You're thoughts are anything BUT deep from what I've heard from you thus far.

[Vince Russo]

Quote: Originally Posted by foolonthehill If I will use my brains, I would follow the formula that says INCREASE PRICES. If the maids will get P20T, then the renter who is an ENGR will be receving P200T (did I answer you before? you didnt read it?) I have answered you specifically, using my brain..

I'm sorry, but increasing prices is NOT a good thing... And, no.. you have yet to directly answer ANY of my questions. Anyone who pushes Hype Theory as strongly as you do must be in that category of people whose salary would jump from 4,000p per month to 20,000p. That is all that you really care about, isn't it? People who work hard should receive a fair and decent salary. That's the way it should be. But you know, very few people in the USA have maids or helpers. Why? Because they are too expensive for most people to afford because of the high costs. So, most people do their own cleaning , laundry, paying bills etc. and that's that. Same thing goes for having private security guards, gardeners, drivers and tutors. If you quintuple the salaries of the same job positions HERE, people will probably just fire them (if they demand the 20,000p salary) and hire new ones from the province who will be willing to work for the pre-Hype Theory salary. Also, what makes you think that the adjusted higher paid positions (engineers, attorneys, doctors etc) are going to evenly share the wealth gained from their own boosted salaries? Will Hype Theory still work if only a percentage of the population abide by it?

Please respond from your actual experience in these areas, "using your brain" (no quotes from the book).

[foolonthehill]

You miss the points
a. When you are a policy maker, you make your policy (general rule) based on the majority. Exceptional cases will be handled exceptionally. I am certain you agree.

b. You are not using a complete analysis when you say SSS and GSIS are underfunded. This is an example of not looking beyond the tip of your nose. Under Hyperwages, there will be hyper tax collections (even at the same rate percent). The actual value is higher. 30% of 1,000 is not the same at 30% of P20,000. So therefore, SSS and GSIS will be funded (and their interest income in amounts will be higher too even using the old percent rate of interest)

I am certaing you will agree.

c. Who do I thinkg will boost the SSS? By asking that question, you obviously did not look at Hyperwage in its entirety. Again, you answer is in section b above.

I am certaing you will agree.

d. No, I don't think the 'greater minds' you think of are dealing or looking for the CORRECT ways to reduce poverty. The govts own statistisc: the poor in percent have increase over the last 6 years.
We have been this poor for the last 50 years. If you think this is okay with you, thats fine, bec you are not part of the 70% of the entire workforce earning only the min. wage.
What is their specific solution to poverty? Name me a solution that will bring out out poverty (lessen) in the next 5 years. None? See, I told you.

e. I am not overly confident of my intelligence level. I am confident however of understanding simple concepts which the author calls 'self-evident.'

f. Unrecognized author, that he is. However, I have read the recognized authors and I cant even find a single specific solution to reducing poverty, as pointed out as well in the Hyperwage book. Can you tell me a specific solution by any recognized author.

g. So you have 20 years of work, etc etc? So what have you learned? What is your own IDEA to reduce poverty faster than Hyperwage and more comprehensively than hyperwage?

And what have you done to your helper? In the words of the author, you have rewarded her 20-year loyaly with another 10 years of being a helper? You havent improved her status in life?

h. I am speaking from experience, it is you who cannot understand how to make a theory of your experience. My experience is exactly that described in the book: worked for so many years doing the same work as my counterparts in the USA main office but paid less than 1/10th, and yet..
my laptop is the same price as in the USA, my cellphone, my car etc... the price of coke is not 1/0th, the price of paper is not 1/10th, the price of books of same quality is not 1/10th.

this is the nonlinearity in the Hyperwage book, that is REAL experience, dont think you are the only one with REAL experience. Maybe i understood THE WHY of my experience while some DO NOT.

i. My own thought (not from the book)? If I talk about gravity will you say its not my idea bec Newton discovered it? Same with Hyperwage. I am certain you agree.

Newton did NOT invent gravity (how many times should I say this, or did you read the messages here mr?)

But Newton explained it. Now that I talk about gravity it is self evident that I whatever I say about gravity will LOOK like I did not use my own brain bec Newton wrote the theory.

But sadly, you miss this point again.

You use wrong analogies, and you forget one thing: You, what is YOUR solution to reduce poverty that will benefit 100% of all the workers?

Hyperwage is the most grounded theory I have read so far and it is very specific: raise the real (not nominal) purchasing power of the people.


Goodbye and see you when you have found a better solution than Hyperwage because for sure

LOW WAGES did not make us reduce poverty;

Low wages did not make our prices of gasoline cheaper than USA.

Low wages did not lower the prices of laptops

Low wages did not lower the price of heavy equipment for road building

Low wages did not prevent the brain drain

Low wages did not prevent reduction of grade school enrollees

Low wages did not lower medicines

Low wages did not give us better hospitals

Low wages did not increase the tax collections

I think I have to stop posting here. You read teh book and throw it, and make your own reduction solution.

Stop bragging about your 20 years of affluence. Bec your affluence did not reduce my poverty either

Quote: Originally Posted by Vince Russo As usual, you are claiming "intellectual high ground" whenever someone challenges Hype Theory.. You apparently worship the ground the author walks on, and that's okay for you. You refer to the ruination of peoples' lives as "minor exceptions".. SSS and GSIS benefits are already underfunded, and in case you haven't noticed, this country's government is in horrible shape financially. Just who do you think is going to fund SSS and GSIS to boost payment levels up so dramatically. Forget what you think of my intellectual level for a moment. Don't you think that greater minds than yours (or the author's) have been dealing with looking for a way to lessen the rampant poverty here? And yes, claiming that you are my intellectual superior IS insulting to me. You're overly confident in many ways, one of which is your intelligence level. You really believe that the solution for years of poverty lies in a book written by an unrecognized author of a theory who himself probably lives at or near the poverty level? If you want to learn about making more money, you should talk to someone who has made a lot of money and find out how THEY did it. We have yet to discuss anything because you refrain from using your own experiences (other than your choice of insults) to debate any of the points I brought up. Talk to me when you've worked at a job for 20 years, earned a salary, owned houses, employed people and traveled a bit. Then we can talk as equals, with you speaking from actual EXPERIENCE, not merely quoting excerpts from a book you enjoy reading. You're thoughts are anything BUT deep from what I've heard from you thus far.

[icon_king]

undangon ang pangurakot mao ra gyud na.....

[Vince Russo]

@ foolonthehill: I knew it! You're angry that you are making too little money at your job. Your true colors have finally shown through: you are jealous of the higher wages paid to employees (who you refer to as your "counterparts") in the USA and other larger countries. To get that elusive "big salary", you so easily disregard any of the consequences which would befall others in pursuit of your goal. You aren't interested in solving poverty in your country, only your own poverty!

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know the solution for the poverty here. Hyper tax collection? Give me a break! Isn't the BIR already under constant fire for being unable to adequately collect taxes? They will magically be able to "Hyper-collect" taxes under Hyperwage Theory? Hmmmm.. Right.

You incorrectly assumed that I have employed a helper here for 20 years, and implied that I probably exploited him/her with low wages. I made no such statement. That was a grossly stereotypical remark and it appears that you also have some unresolved issues with foreigners living here. You quickly discounted the fact that I have worked and lived in the USA (which you identified as a Hyperwage country) for considerably longer than you have been alive, and I can tell you that there are many people living in poverty there, regardless of the high wages. All of the Hyperwage earning countries still have poverty, homeless people and misery... You don't hold the patent on blight. There is no quick-fix or "overnight success" solution for poverty ANYWHERE. You won't find the answer in a book. Go out and see the world, foolonthehill. Live and work abroad for a few years and get some experience before assuming that you know more than the rest of us dummies. Go out and earn a higher wage, and then then spend it all on a your higher cost of living.. At the end of the day, you will still have about the same amount of money in your pocket that you have living here. You can rent a nice 1-room apartment in San Francisco for around 100,000p per month. A parking space for your car will cost you mga 10,000p additional per month. Dinner at a low priced resto will cost 1,200p (and the tip is 15-20%, or mga 200p, which you HAVE to leave). Go to a movie with popcorn and a coke?.. that's another 1,200p. So, at the end of the month you have spent your high salary on a high cost of living, and are still broke. And then you get a lay-off notice from work because the company is cutting back their staff. That's reality...So much for hype theory.

p.s. - leave your book at home when you travel.

[rickflag]

Quote: Originally Posted by foolonthehill My goodness! Where did this line of reasoning come from? It is very demeaning for anyone to even comment on this. It's a pity.

i am just giving you an example that if you are earning 100K a month and you employ me as a driver you'll gonna pay me that much too. doesn't that offset everything? you're earning big bug you're also spending big.

[rickflag]

for your info miss. my earnings is way above the average employee. not to boast but it could be 3 or 4 times bigger. ahem, but my point is, i still feel small and poor whenever i am with my friends who are businessmen and earning much higher than me. although i also feel rich whenever i go out with people who are earning less. so "poverty" is just a matter of perception sometimes.

[Tarmac]

While the author likes to call highly-developed countries "hyperwage", he seems to think we can match their status simply by declaring higher wages. In other words, we can be wealthy by simple legislative fiat: "Let there be money and put it in the hands of the lowliest of workers, everything else will adjust accordingly." Doesn't matter what the economic history of those "hyperwage" countries are and how different those respective histories are from our own.

Wealth begets wealth. Money begets money. That is what purchasing power is all about. That part is pretty clear. If I didn't learn that from my macroeconomics class in college, I didn't learn anything.

Issues such as inflation, unemployment and currency devaluation are addressed. Inflation will happen but not to hyperinflation levels because it has an asymptote (assuming no currency devaluation). Unemployment--despite massive layoffs caused by businesses seeking to automate or otherwise pare down labor costs, more businesses will pop up anyway and whoever is laid off will be absorbed. Devaluation? It won't happen. In fact, because of the multiplier, the currency might even appreciate. Erect a superstructure of increased purchasing power and the financial and monetary markets will follow.

For the sake of moving the discussion forward (and without personally accepting the above arguments), let's just assume that all of the above are accepted as being true (even self-evident as Mr. Bentulan and his alter-ego Foolonthehill like to point out)

My issue is, and has always been, How do we get there?

To take the author's favorite analogy one step further, How does the caterpillar become a butterfly, and not a moth? Or end up stillborn in its cocoon?

Mr. Bentulan admits to not having given the implementation of hyperwage enough thought. Perhaps its proponents on the forum here can give us more concrete analyses and a timeline?

I am looking at this theory not as a simple academic exercise. I am looking at this through the eyes of a stakeholder, as someone who is himself involved in poverty alleviation programs.

Even if I don't agree with Hyperwage as a "single-stroke" one-to-many solution to the country's economic, political and social infirmities, I still hope to gain something useful from this discussion.

[foolonthehill]

Mr. Tarmac!!

You are now a Hyperwager! You post below captures the essence of the hyperwage theory.

Welcome to the club!

How to implement? The Hyperwage says, one ways is 14th month law, the 15th monthly 16th month law. (slow but in the right direction).,

We can also spread out the increase in over 5 years (20,000 in REAL wage not nominal wage)

but bentulan says he will be happy if we are all convinced that increasing wages should be desired not avoided.

and that is how we go from here: change our mindset.. if there's a will, there's a woowwoweee.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tarmac While the author likes to call highly-developed countries "hyperwage", he seems to think we can match their status simply by declaring higher wages. In other words, we can be wealthy by simple legislative fiat: "Let there be money and put it in the hands of the lowliest of workers, everything else will adjust accordingly." Doesn't matter what the economic history of those "hyperwage" countries are and how different those respective histories are from our own. Wealth begets wealth. Money begets money. That is what purchasing power is all about. That part is pretty clear. If I didn't learn that from my macroeconomics class in college, I didn't learn anything. Issues such as inflation, unemployment and currency devaluation are addressed. Inflation will happen but not to hyperinflation levels because it has an asymptote (assuming no currency devaluation). Unemployment--despite massive layoffs caused by businesses seeking to automate or otherwise pare down labor costs, more businesses will pop up anyway and whoever is laid off will be absorbed. Devaluation? It won't happen. In fact, because of the multiplier, the currency might even appreciate. Erect a superstructure of increased purchasing power and the financial and monetary markets will follow. For the sake of moving the discussion forward (and without personally accepting the above arguments), let's just assume that all of the above are accepted as being true (even self-evident as Mr. Bentulan and his alter-ego Foolonthehill like to point out) My issue is, and has always been, How do we get there? To take the author's favorite analogy one step further, How does the caterpillar become a butterfly, and not a moth? Or end up stillborn in its cocoon? Mr. Bentulan admits to not having given the implementation of hyperwage enough thought. Perhaps its proponents on the forum here can give us more concrete analyses and a timeline? I am looking at this theory not as a simple academic exercise. I am looking at this through the eyes of a stakeholder, as someone who is himself involved in poverty alleviation programs. Even if I don't agree with Hyperwage as a "single-stroke" one-to-many solution to the country's economic, political and social infirmities, I still hope to gain something useful from this discussion.

[foolonthehill]

Mr vince,
you miss the point and it has been repeated a thousand times.
there will always be poor people, and they greater in number! anywhere in the world!

BUt focus on the main issue; A pinoy worker in USA at the end of the day is able to send extra cash to the Phils, but the pinoy worker in the phils cannot send cash to the USA.

read teh chapter on THE MYTH of CHEAP COUNTRIES bec it seems you are a victim of that myth.

New lingo: Affordability Index (added to your Non-linear lingo already learned)

Which is a cheaper country, USA or Phils?

Of course, USA is cheaper!

Read the chapter.

PS And yes Im angry for having low wages! iM NOT blaming my managers who earned hgh bec they deserve it. I blame the govt (actually, bentualn does.) for not protecting the poor

Henry SY is too rich he cant spend it all but he pays his US consultants at hyperwage sallary but does not give that much to local workers? (not same amount).. talkng about labor wage in general

Quote: Originally Posted by Vince Russo @ foolonthehill: I knew it! You're angry that you are making too little money at your job. Your true colors have finally shown through: you are jealous of the higher wages paid to employees (who you refer to as your "counterparts") in the USA and other larger countries. To get that elusive "big salary", you so easily disregard any of the consequences which would befall others in pursuit of your goal. You aren't interested in solving poverty in your country, only your own poverty! Unlike you, I don't pretend to know the solution for the poverty here. Hyper tax collection? Give me a break! Isn't the BIR already under constant fire for being unable to adequately collect taxes? They will magically be able to "Hyper-collect" taxes under Hyperwage Theory? Hmmmm.. Right. You incorrectly assumed that I have employed a helper here for 20 years, and implied that I probably exploited him/her with low wages. I made no such statement. That was a grossly stereotypical remark and it appears that you also have some unresolved issues with foreigners living here. You quickly discounted the fact that I have worked and lived in the USA (which you identified as a Hyperwage country) for considerably longer than you have been alive, and I can tell you that there are many people living in poverty there, regardless of the high wages. All of the Hyperwage earning countries still have poverty, homeless people and misery... You don't hold the patent on blight. There is no quick-fix or "overnight success" solution for poverty ANYWHERE. You won't find the answer in a book. Go out and see the world, foolonthehill. Live and work abroad for a few years and get some experience before assuming that you know more than the rest of us dummies. Go out and earn a higher wage, and then then spend it all on a your higher cost of living.. At the end of the day, you will still have about the same amount of money in your pocket that you have living here. You can rent a nice 1-room apartment in San Francisco for around 100,000p per month. A parking space for your car will cost you mga 10,000p additional per month. Dinner at a low priced resto will cost 1,200p (and the tip is 15-20%, or mga 200p, which you HAVE to leave). Go to a movie with popcorn and a coke?.. that's another 1,200p. So, at the end of the month you have spent your high salary on a high cost of living, and are still broke. And then you get a lay-off notice from work because the company is cutting back their staff. That's reality...So much for hype theory. p.s. - leave your book at home when you travel.

[foolonthehill]

Mr tarmac, ikaw naman. pls explain to mr vince why his generalization below is not fully reasoned out.

Both of you have worked or live abroad for a long time. Share your "affordability index"

experience..


----

Quote: Originally Posted by Vince Russo @ foolonthehill: I knew it! You're angry that you are making too little money at your job. Your true colors have finally shown through: you are jealous of the higher wages paid to employees (who you refer to as your "counterparts") in the USA and other larger countries. To get that elusive "big salary", you so easily disregard any of the consequences which would befall others in pursuit of your goal. You aren't interested in solving poverty in your country, only your own poverty! Unlike you, I don't pretend to know the solution for the poverty here. Hyper tax collection? Give me a break! Isn't the BIR already under constant fire for being unable to adequately collect taxes? They will magically be able to "Hyper-collect" taxes under Hyperwage Theory? Hmmmm.. Right. You incorrectly assumed that I have employed a helper here for 20 years, and implied that I probably exploited him/her with low wages. I made no such statement. That was a grossly stereotypical remark and it appears that you also have some unresolved issues with foreigners living here. You quickly discounted the fact that I have worked and lived in the USA (which you identified as a Hyperwage country) for considerably longer than you have been alive, and I can tell you that there are many people living in poverty there, regardless of the high wages. All of the Hyperwage earning countries still have poverty, homeless people and misery... You don't hold the patent on blight. There is no quick-fix or "overnight success" solution for poverty ANYWHERE. You won't find the answer in a book. Go out and see the world, foolonthehill. Live and work abroad for a few years and get some experience before assuming that you know more than the rest of us dummies. Go out and earn a higher wage, and then then spend it all on a your higher cost of living.. At the end of the day, you will still have about the same amount of money in your pocket that you have living here. You can rent a nice 1-room apartment in San Francisco for around 100,000p per month. A parking space for your car will cost you mga 10,000p additional per month. Dinner at a low priced resto will cost 1,200p (and the tip is 15-20%, or mga 200p, which you HAVE to leave). Go to a movie with popcorn and a coke?.. that's another 1,200p. So, at the end of the month you have spent your high salary on a high cost of living, and are still broke. And then you get a lay-off notice from work because the company is cutting back their staff. That's reality...So much for hype theory. p.s. - leave your book at home when you travel.