How to stop or solve the poverty in the Philippines?

[unsay_ngalan_nimo]

@mr. fool,

hyperwage theory is supposed to be for the third world isn it?, i dont get why Mr.bentulan keeps pointing at at first world that gives high minimum wage...

just a simple man's question: cant we assume in the case of first world that economic progress comes first before high minimum wages.. or was it high wages before economic progress?

low inflation rate vs. high inflation rate---> what about import vs export? wont high inflation affect the price of manga and rubber we sell? so will haviana's have to further increased their price? they are getting their rubber in Mindanao..

[Tarmac]

Quote: Originally Posted by unsay_ngalan_nimo are you a teacher or an engineer?

God help us if he/she is a teacher. So much for fostering informative discussion and real learning in the classroom environment.




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[foolonthehill]

Of course you don't get it because you havent read the book in its entirety.

You keep on making potshots at the theory, when everything you have raised have been already discussed in the book

for example you dont get it why bentoln keeps pointing at the first world. Why dont you get it? He is pointing out to you that in order for a third world country to become a first world country, the wages must be raised high. See the linkage now?

Your second point is also answered as early as Chapter 1 or Chapter 2. We have used low wages for the last 100 years, and we are still a third world country. In the next 3 years, still 3rd world, even 3 years after that, and another 3 years and another. For the next decade using low wages (the Strategy of POVERTY, that is the title of chapter 1) it did not work and actually the GDP equation tells you that low wages will not work (why hasnt any economist seen that before?). It is high wages that give a NET purchasing power increase. not low wages.


He said that HIGH Purchasing power IS THE CAUSE of the wealth of nations., not the other way around.

Now, you do you see it?

Quote: Originally Posted by unsay_ngalan_nimo @mr. fool, hyperwage theory is supposed to be for the third world isn it?, i dont get why Mr.bentulan keeps pointing at at first world that gives high minimum wage... just a simple man's question: cant we assume in the case of first world that economic progress comes first before high minimum wages.. or was it high wages before economic progress? low inflation rate vs. high inflation rate---> what about import vs export? wont high inflation affect the price of manga and rubber we sell? so will haviana's have to further increased their price? they are getting their rubber in Mindanao..

[foolonthehill]

It so fallacious, why does the other person matter to you? we read the same book, and if you dont understand it, i cannot make you understand it. I dont matter to you. Understanding is between you and the book.

I am only pointing out to you that you are lost in leaves, and does not see the forest.

CK1994 is just one formal study that validates Hyperwage THeory.

The big picture is the one driven by the book which is -- all Hyperwage countries have high wages and that is not a mere accident or coincidence. There is a cause and effect. High purchasing power is the cause, and wealth of the country is the effect.

It is not coincidence, acdg to teh author, that is self-evident, that is empirical, that is real, as real as your relatives going to the US for the hyperwage.

Drop your obssession with CK because that is confusing you.

Look at the forest, not the leaves.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tarmac God help us if he/she is a teacher. So much for fostering informative discussion and real learning in the classroom environment. .

[foolonthehill]

You are wrong.
You said that the book has not considered other factors.
That is completely wrong.
You havent read the book yet, thats why I said you can come back in 60 days after reading
The Hyperwage is so complete in analyzing all factors that is includes a discussion of why it will reduce rather than increase the GROWTH rate of the population

Or how the theory will reduce the FILIPINO time

Cant you see how well thought out the book is? Readl AL19734 comments about the book being fully thught out.

You read, Nglan, then after that you comment.

So far every statement you have has been proven either wrong or inconsistent.

Quote: Originally Posted by unsay_ngalan_nimo @ mR.Fool that why i said it lacks actual praticality yet... b4cause it does not consider other factors that affect our economy.. as i can see the way Mr.bentulan see it as economy affects all.. but actually policies, intent and motives affects economy more than economy affects others... ...

[foolonthehill]

Oh no, not again.
Another wrong statement Mr Ngalan.
You said taht the government finds the hyperwage idea hilarious
Fact: four years ago internal discussions and powerpoints at the Department of Budget and Management (DBM) should the discussion of the effects of increasing wages using the conclusions and statement found in the Hyperwage THeory book. This was revealed by Bantulan in an interview with Leo Lastimosa. That was four years ago.

Last year, DBM finally increased the min. wage of teacher to P20T (is it a coincidence that the is the amount suggested by Hyperwage THeory?

The govt is now slowly implement Hyperwage.

And look that the new economic buzzwrod amoung politcians now.

Rolando Andaya of DBM: give teachers "buying power"
Sen. Trillanes: Bill to give legislated increase to workers
Mar Roxas: consuming power
Loren Legarda: consumption power
NEDA sec Neri: purchasing power (Bentulan's finance professor)
Albay Gov Salceda: purchasing power (former classmate of Bentolan in financial economics; he says this repeatedly during his guestings with Leo lastimosa)

These buzzword was not fashionable in the last 30 years in this country. After 2005, when Hypwerage ws published and used Purchasing pOwer as the key to the economic prosperity, every leader is not making this term fashionable.

The book has made the phrase fashionable.

So Mr Ngalan, you are wrong. The officials above have started to realize that the focus on purchasing power is logical

And the DBM action is NOT a rebuke of Hyperwage but an embrace and with the magic words "consuming power" by Andaya during a congressional hearing.

Soon, the logic of it will overcome all doubters.

Doubting Thomas.

Quote: Originally Posted by unsay_ngalan_nimo @ mR.Fool why do you think are we afraid to increased our salary sir? why do you think the government think the idea hilarious? there are some companies that do give high salary.. ...

[foolonthehill]

You can lead the horse to the water but cant force him to drink.

Your statements are full of motherhood statements.

Unsay labot sa evidence?

You are trying to zero in on a minor fact, the CK study.

Do you think the author relied heavily on this study? he only used it as one of the supporting data, and that he is surprised by there is controversy about it among economists, when acdg to him, the CK data would have been expected

GDP is directly proportional to purchasing power, therefore it is expected that if the NJ raises purchasing power then GDP is increased.

Dont you thikn the Phils can absorb at 20% single step increase?

the favorite words i hear many time on the radio is his saying ---
--- Wage increases should be desired, not avoided, by the economists and leaders.---

if wage hike is desirable for the country's economy, so what are you waiting for?


Your statement about credit was actually fallacious. It is purchasing power that is the key. You have confused the "financing decision" with the "investment" decision.

And AL1974 correctly rectified your error in saying that it was the wages that helped the NJ economy but the credit. Your idea was wrong, and that is why Al1974 corrected you.

The real variable is purchasing power (whether thru credit or thru wage increase)

Quote: Originally Posted by Tarmac Fool, Where did I question his contention that first world countries are hyperwage? Did I say they aren't? Where did I question his contention that affordability is a better indicator of whether we are cheap or not? Unsay labot ani sa CK1994? Where did I even mention in my post that things are cheaper in the Philippines than in the States? Again you're manufacturing replies to imagined issues. Unsay labot sa imong evidence about Pinoys going to the States to get higher paying jobs to what Mr. Bentulan said is empirical data provided by CK1994 that an increase in minimum wage in fact creates more jobs? Quote all the statistics you like about the number of Pinoys leaving our country for better paying jobs abroad, but how does that relate to my post? Apropos your point that CK1994 saying the increase did not result in the destruction of the economy by whatever percentage (although that is not the only point Mr. Bentulan made about the study), I say the period of economic expansion the United States experienced at the time could easily have absorbed the 18.8% rise in minimum wage. Besides, if that is the only thing Mr. Bentulan wanted to point out with CK1994, that's fine, but he actually went further and said employment increased as a result of the rise in minimum wage. I didn't manufacture those quotes out of thin air. I actually cut and paste them from the Street Strategist website. Not only do you put words in my mouth, you put them in Mr. Bentulan's as well. (Even Mr. Bentulan himself says that CK1994 is the first empirical study to (he says) validate hyperwage in the sense that increased wages will lead to more jobs. He has yet to quote another empirical study that has the same standing as CK1994, so I'm assuming from his paper it is the only one) You're spring-loaded to think other people don't understand, that you are the one of the few possessors of arcane, esoteric knowledge. Is my post too difficult to read from where you sit on your high horse? Conveniently you skirt the issue I raised about Mr. Bentulan's use of CK1994 being given proper context. al1974 got my point exactly but strangely enough, you haven't. Then again, he approaches this thread with a non-hostile mindset, respectful of the opinions of others no matter how opposed to his own view. Discussing with you on the other hand is futile because you go off-tangent in your rush to sound witty and superior. It's like we're supposed to be playing a game of tennis but you show up in a basketball jersey and start shooting free throws. Go ahead, cite or quote another point on hyperwage that is irrelevant to my post on CK1994. Put words in my mouth. Then make another patronizing, condescending remark. Or like you say, give up on me. I think you're better off doing so because your replies have been pretty far out. Res ipsa location--your far-out words speak for themselves. Just because I don't agree that hyperwage is a practicable solution doesn't mean I don't understand. I say it isn't practicable precisely because I understand what Mr. Bentulan is saying. The country's political climate won't allow implementation of hyperwage. It will take a dramatic overhaul of our institutions before we are even ready. Otherwise, I'll give Mr. Bentulan credit where credit is due. I loved reading the paper. I'll just leave you to believe what you will. What does that Doobie Brothers song say? What a fool believes no wise man has the power to reason away. ------------------------------------- @al1974 Thanks for taking time to read and understand my post in its entirety. My point was really very simple, wasn't it? I didn't even challenge Mr. Bentulan's hyperwage theory. You're correct that credit is helpful only to the point where it should not exceed income. That is exactly what the Americans are finding out now with the economic crisis. In painful fashion.

[unsay_ngalan_nimo]

@Mr.fool

so you're saying that for the first world to actually be in their place they raise their wages first? so it was high minimum wage before economic wealth wont you consider that what actually turn the pax americana and pax brittanica is actually protectionism?

wallerstein dependency theory on core and periphery sir.. thats what im talking about...

[al1974]

First world countries give high regard for its lowest employee- from the maids to the guards to the laborer. To simply explain the Hyperwage Theory- the author just wants a world market price for our lowest laborer. Thats the only way these lowly individuals can survive and when these people can have better salaries, it will return to the economy. He also stated that why are Filipinos not paid as much as the Americans, Japanese, British, etc? Are Filipinos of lesser dignity compared to them?

Economic stimulus is necessary to improve the poverty issue and the best way to stimulate the economy is to give higher wages rather than pouring on infrastructure projects which are overpriced by corrupt individuals. First world countries have people with higher purchasing power, thus economy is doing well.

[foolonthehill]

pax american? britannica/; are you lost in time?

You blame people 800 years ago for your poverty now? and their wealth today?

Wake up.

And wallestein? That's just another high falutin theory made an an "academic" with no feet on the ground.

Tell me, how does walles put food on the table tomorrow for that janitor in SM with 5 mouths to feed with P125 a day.

Learn how to filter your information. Not all are useful. walles my foot.

Quote: Originally Posted by unsay_ngalan_nimo @Mr.fool so you're saying that for the first world to actually be in their place they raise their wages first? so it was high minimum wage before economic wealth wont you consider that what actually turn the pax americana and pax brittanica is actually protectionism? wallerstein dependency theory on core and periphery sir.. thats what im talking about...

[foolonthehill]

You are wrong again tarmac.,

Off tangent? You are the one off tangent

You refuse and cannot understand that all these factors are part of the beauty of hyperwage theory and that the theory does not solve on problem alone.

You nitpick on a tiny issue like "slight increase in employment" but you miss the bigger lesson. Increasing wages WILL NOT KILL the economy even for a country like the US which has already a high level of wages.

That is the main lesson.

The brain drain is not basketball and tennis. They are part of the problems being addressed by hyperwage, you cannot say they are not related (basket and tennis are sports) thats the point; same generic class.

The pop growth is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

1 of out 10 people going to USA, is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

More aircon technicians hired bec of higher wages, is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

More ice cream sold bec of high wages is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

More taxi passengers bec of high wages is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

More VAT collection bec of high wages is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

More income tax collection bec of high wages is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

More carpenters employed bec of more contruction because more people can build houses, bec of high wages is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

Hyperwage covers a wide ground and it affects DIRECTLY 100% of the people in this country (even the pensioners) ....
bec of high wages is not isolated, they are not off tangent they are part of Hyperwage Theory

Quote: Originally Posted by Tarmac Fool, Discussing with you on the other hand is futile because you go off-tangent in your rush to sound witty and superior. It's like we're supposed to be playing a game of tennis but you show up in a basketball jersey and start shooting free throws. Go ahead, cite or quote another point on hyperwage that is irrelevant to my post on CK1994. Put words in my mouth. Then make another patronizing, condescending remark. Or like you say, give up on me. I think you're better off doing so because your replies have been pretty far out. Res ipsa location--your far-out words speak for themselves.

[foolonthehill]

Therefore, by your own statement.. .. you agree to hyperwage?

is it hyperwage that is the cause of the wealth of first world countries or is it the effect.

Reminder: We have been using poverty as our strategy, remember that low wages DID NOT make us rich. Maybe bentulan is correct that increasing wages is the correct strategy?

Quote: Originally Posted by Tarmac Fool, Where did I question his contention that first world countries are hyperwage? Did I say they aren't?

[davanitz]

Question!!!

What happen if all countries will implement hyperwage?

[Tarmac]

Quote: Originally Posted by foolonthehill Your statement about credit was actually fallacious. It is purchasing power that is the key. You have confused the "financing decision" with the "investment" decision. And AL1974 correctly rectified your error in saying that it was the wages that helped the NJ economy but the credit. Your idea was wrong, and that is why Al1974 corrected you. The real variable is purchasing power (whether thru credit or thru wage increase)

Once again, rushing to sound smart and ending up looking dumb.

I'm the one who can't or won't understand?

It's pretty clear now you don't read or understand what other people post on this thread. I wrote the following on that very first post on CK1994:

"Purchasing power certainly increased, that is true, but not entirely due to increased minimum wage. Credit growth far outstripped any legislated wage increase 18.8% to 90%.

In the end, this increase purchasing power was merely illusory. While easy credit played a big part in fueling the economic boom of the 90's, it finally came home to roost last year when Americans suddenly realized they had houses they couldn't pay for and that they were in hock for many years. In effect, their salaries for the year and the year after were already spoken for. But then that's a subject matter that deserves a thread of its own."

So where was I wrong, pray tell Ma'am/Sir?

Only in your mind.

Because you never understood my post, you've ended up wasting thread space arguing with me on issues I never even raised or accusing me of not comprehending things that it turns out I'd already pointed out in the first place.

Perhaps that post had too many words for you and your brain stopped working? Should I include pictures and drawings next time out to make them more understandable to you? Or use larger font? Is the font I'm using now large enough for you? Any larger and the mods might intervene.

al1974 did not correct me, he actually agreed with me. He has much better reading comprehension than you. Don't put yourself on his level because that is an insult to him. Ayaw pangamung niya intawn.

You're not only flogging a dead horse, you're flogging a dead unicorn--a figment of your fanciful imagination.

[Tarmac]

Quote: Originally Posted by foolonthehill therefore, by your own statement.. .. you agree to hyperwage?

Ah, Unabashed Sophistry at work. Is that what you've been reduced to?

Nice try, Fool, but I'm already onto you.

Not once in any of my posts did I question the fact that highly-developed countries have higher salary levels, hyperwage if you will. Any fool (even one on the hill) knows that so why is it an issue?

Should that mean I agree with hyperwage en toto?

You are in effect saying "You agree that highly-developed countries have high wages. Therefore you agree with the Hyperwage Theory." Where's the logic there?

Do I agree with points raised in his paper? Yes. Lots of them, in fact. Do I agree with everything Mr. Bentulan says? No. I've looked at his theory with a critical eye, as anyone should.

Have you?

Or do you agree with everything he says, no questions asked?

Good for you, the world must be such a simple place for you.

Or perhaps you're too simple for a place in this world.

Questioning Bentulan's interpretation of CK1994 data is not an attempt to undermine the strength of Bentulan's other arguments. That's pretty obvious to anyone (except you). If he can strengthen that portion of his argument, so much the better for him. He'll be even more convincing and earn more converts. I pointed out a potential flaw with some of his statements, but I'm pretty sure you don't know what it is because it's obvious you never read the paper that closely.

Can you prove that what I said about Bentulan's use of CK1994 is erroneous? I mean really prove it in convincing fashion, on the strength of issues I actually raised? All you've really done is gloss the whole thing over and say it is not important, that it is not the real point of Bentulan's citation of CK1994. Stop being Bentulan's self-appointed apologist because he doesn't need one. Especially not one of such low caliber.

The only one who made such a big fuss out of CK1994 is you. By trying to refute or dismiss my minor point on CK1994 with a series of off-tangent arguments, the thread has grown by an inordinate amount. You think I'm going to take your insults and non-sequitur arguments lying down? Your bellicose stance does not impress me one bit.

I'm wondering whether Reader's Digest ever ran a condensed version of Hyperwage? Or that National Bookstore has Hyperwage Cliff Notes, or "Hyperwage for Dummies"? Perhaps those are the versions you read?

Motherhood statements? You're the one whose posts are full of motherhood statements. And they're beginning to sound repetitious and boring. Even the way you insult people on this thread is repetitious and boring. You merely bandy about snippets of the hyperwage argument willy-nilly with little regard for whether they actually answer questions or issues people raise.

You keep accusing people of not understanding hyperwage. You probably don't understand it enough yourself to look at it critically. Please express one original thought beyond parroting Bentulan and restore my faith in you.