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  #151  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:04 PM
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The author wrote and said on the program: Even if we hv zero corruption tomorrow morning, the poor worker still be earning P265 a day when the survival wage is P600 ...

That is not the solkution...



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Originally Posted by raphz View Post
once corruption will be minimized then poverty level goes down...

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  #152  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:09 PM
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LIAR., you say YOU VE READ THE THEORY AND YET YOU SAY BENTULAN did not hear of the big mac index?

ha ha its not BURGER index , ignorant. it is BIG MAC INDEX.

you have no credibility at all and you sound pompous. calling Hyperwage unfounded.

one chapter is devoted to the big mac index

liar evil ka.



]




Quote:
Originally Posted by brownprose View Post
I have read the theory already and had heard the discussion from the author himself Mr. Bentulan. I don't wish to put down the person behind it, but it seems he missed to see the science behind a "market-driven economy" which has been tested time and time again.



If you have read the theory well and believed it, then both of you are missing real economic concepts here. And yes, while you can't apply economic concepts most of the time, but you can apply those that are proven and tested. Thus the saying -- "If it ain't broke (accepted economic principles) why fix it?"

No.2 you and the author are not judicious in using economic data. You compare wages in affluent countries as basis why hyperwages can be applicable here. Does he know what BMI (Burger Mac Index) means? Did he ever study the impact of forex parity with reference to purchasing power between trading countries? That any adjustment in prices can dampen export markets? If he didn't, it can only mean he's just making up the theory without prudence.

No. 3 The theory plays on a skewed assumption that it will work because it invites foreign investments. This is REAL BS. How can you invite foreign investments with that if you're wages is not at par with countries offering the same job? Does your "theory" have any real data where it indicated a surge in foreign direct investment when hyperwage was applied?

I'm sorry, I don't even bite if hyperwage meets the criteria of being a theory -- it is very unintelligible, unscientific and best of it all -- it is unfounded!

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  #153  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:12 PM
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you have not read the book? it is written there that the exploitative foreign investments will go away but the good one come here.. Jollibee went to US bec of HIGH WAGES or LOW wageds? or consumer purhcasing power..

YOu have no credibility all your speculations have no basis brownprose; all false logic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brownprose View Post
I have read the theory already and had heard the discussion from the author himself Mr. Bentulan. I don't wish to put down the person behind it, but it seems he missed to see the science behind a "market-driven economy" which has been tested time and time again.

If you have read the theory well and believed it, then both of you are missing real economic concepts here. And yes, while you can't apply economic concepts most of the time, but you can apply those that are proven and tested. Thus the saying -- "If it ain't broke (accepted economic principles) why fix it?"

No.2 you and the author are not judicious in using economic data. You compare wages in affluent countries as basis why hyperwages can be applicable here. Does he know what BMI (Burger Mac Index) means? Did he ever study the impact of forex parity with reference to purchasing power between trading countries? That any adjustment in prices can dampen export markets? If he didn't, it can only mean he's just making up the theory without prudence.

No. 3 The theory plays on a skewed assumption that it will work because it invites foreign investments. This is REAL BS. How can you invite foreign investments with that if you're wages is not at par with countries offering the same job? Does your "theory" have any real data where it indicated a surge in foreign direct investment when hyperwage was applied?

I'm sorry, I don't even bite if hyperwage meets the criteria of being a theory -- it is very unintelligible, unscientific and best of it all -- it is unfounded!

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  #154  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:17 PM
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Hyperwage Theory is NOT a theory it is a reality . all First World countries are hyperwage countries thats your relatives are there. are you hard of understanding? they didnt go there bec they like the cold. our fathers went to Saudi not bec of the hot sun but bec of high wages. your teacher went to Taiwan as maids not bec they like the language there but bec thy have high wages.

That is evidence real and historical. and have you read the Card Krueger. read it first

If you cannot understand that. then go back to your field of education dont dabble in economics.





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Originally Posted by brownprose View Post
Bro...you just said it yourself it is a "Theory" and remains to be proven. Arbitrary increase in wages has been proven to be inflationary -- and it's not a theory but supported by empirical data. Between (unproven) theory and historical evidence, would you really think anyone would buy your theory?

By the way...I have heard this theory sometime more than two years ago by Thads Bentulan (sorry if i mispelled his name)...frankly, I don't even know if he understands his economics well although I don't wish to presume an expert here but it's poor economics to ignore proven economic concepts which is what this whole theory conversely presents.

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  #155  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:20 PM
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Pareho ta bay. but i read the book and found out every assertion has a logical basis. compared to what our govt is doing now. all bad economics.

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Originally Posted by tapsikret View Post
im very much convinced about this hyperwage theory..
i always listened to DYAB's aragnkada kanang kang leo lastimosa..
it was there in DYAB that i first heard about this theory and the author gamely answered all questions thrown at him.. and i was convinced..

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  #156  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:23 PM
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are you ignorant? All high wage countries have lower inflation rates than third world countries. or maybe you didnt know that bec you didnt read the book.

Read the Card-Krueger chapter it discredits your statement below.

You are very wild. you make wild statements and you think that makes ur statement correct?


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Originally Posted by brownprose View Post
Sorry...this is just too good to be true. hyper-wages is inflationary and this has been proven many times over in many economies.

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  #157  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:26 PM
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Default US dont recruit doctors

Thats what the second chapter of the book says Strategy of Poverty . we compete on low wages rather than high intellect..

that is why US never recruits our doctors to practice medicine in the US. they only recruit the nurse bec nurses work as slaves.


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Originally Posted by nItO/pIrEnA View Post
is the street strategist a pinoy? a bisdak? if yes, wow...awesome...

* * *

not a solution, but a grim observation:

we take pride in being an emerging BPO hub, we're happy being called the prime supplier of quality overseas worker...

yeah, isnt that great

...we're giving Bangalore a run for their money when it comes to cheap labor and high-school level careers...

...we take pride for producing the best workers the world over...guess what? so was Africa a few centuries ago (read: slave trade)...the only difference is that now, the slaves voluntarily get in the slave ships...

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  #158  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:37 PM
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You are using incomplete logic. Ayaw patuga-tuga brownprose, you are ignorant, you have no expertise in economics and you dont read the book being debated.

In the book, which i have read and which you have not...

increases in wages can be offset in the combination of these:
(kombinasyon, sister ha, para kasabot ka)

1. increase in producitivty

2. increase in selling price (consumer with purchasing power can absorb higher prices; dont forget the chapter on asymptotic inflation, ha brownprose. baka pataka na pod ka hyperinflation diha)

3. increase in sales volume (people have the consumer purchasing power due to high wages)

Combination...

This is evident in 13th month pay (double wages in one month but inflation is NOT NOT NOT double)





Quote:
Originally Posted by brownprose View Post
Depends. You might be interested to read some publications about time and motion studies on many labor-intensive jobs. If you like to get some ideas what they are, you may want to visit some Mepz companies in Lapu2x. But let me give you an example -- say in the shoe industry. Studies suggest that an average worker only has the MAXIMUM CAPACITY to produce 18-20 shoes a day. Given, do you think he/she would be extra productive if you give him/her twice his ordinary pay if he goes beyond his production capacity? Remember, humans are not machines that you can reconfigure to produce over and above his energies.

Productivity in other areas of employment works on certain jobs like sales/marketing; special or technical skills that help reduce waste or optimize loads or capacities and etc. Companies are willing to pay extra for these type of "work performances" since they help companies reduce cost or invite business.



Of course. That's why part of the risk of employment is by being substituted for machines. Workers must be prepared to learn new skills that machines cannot replace because market forces will always leverage new technologies to reduce or if not eliminate the need for humans -- another fact of life the world cannot change.

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  #159  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:44 PM
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Brownprose, you are exposing your ignorance, you lack of economic knowledge, and lying about reading the book.

the 20,000 (whether divided over 5 years or not) is an a CONSTANT CONSTANT CONSTANT PESO BASIS.

Bay, if you have not read, dont enter in the debate. if you cannot understand constant peso basis, do not enter into the debate.

bay, obvious kaayo bay that if you are an economist you will ask if the statemetn is for nominal amount or constant amount basis. so the book in one of the chapters mentions this fact that CONTANT PESO OR CONSTANT DOLLAR BASIS.

so it is false for you to claim that the author does not consider the changes in inflation.

sorry bay ha.. wala ka mangaway nimo. sayop lang gyod ka and you are so arrogant about it by discrediting other people with your false statemetns.





Quote:
Originally Posted by brownprose View Post
I read that 20% yearly increment proposed by Bentulan. Effectively, five years hence, the minimum wage would be like 3.5 times already. And the same increment would consequently follow on goods and services. In effect, it doesn't offer any change in the purchasing power.



Yes BUT on a case by case or industry by industry basis. There are prosperous industries like IT. In Silicon Valley for example, even small companies can afford to really pay high as much as they can afford to hire just one or two people to do programming (I know this because I am also currently connected with a Silicon Valley firm now). But it's hard to ignore the fact that there are industries that require physical labor that a company dies without such kind of human resource -- small scale mining, low-rise construction, system integration/installation and etc.



Do you know how many small businesses this country has? According to the DTI, more than 98% of the country's businesses are categorized as SMEs (Small-Medium Enterprises). Would you or can you afford to make such big trade-offs? I don't think so.

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  #160  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:49 PM
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BrownProse,
did you even read the book? There is an analysis there of teh effect of Hyperwage and rice prices , precisely your concern below. about rice, veggies etc.

Read it daw bay as a favor to us, then cut and paste the example there so you will know what we are talking about.

If you have not read that chapter, what have you chapter have u read?

Pait bay if we are not debating with the same subject.

miga ta bay ha. basa lang sa god.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brownprose View Post
And even if it is forced to, and assuming for the sake of discussion that a sari sari store can afford to make such a huge raise, it will also be forced to raise prices of his isda, utanon and etc. so the moment your worker gets his "hyper-raise", he still has to pay more for the isda and utanon eventually making hyperwage very meaningless and pointless. And what about those that don't have jobs at all?

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  #161  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:55 PM
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Thinkerbelle

There are two types of foreign investors:
1. exploitative (EPZA, call center) who come here bec of our low wages (we are the best brain their low wages can buy)

2. non-explotative (for lack of better term) like Jolibee going to US and San Miguel going to Hong kong.

sure the first type will leave the country in hyperwage. but the second type will come..


]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkerbelle View Post
interesting topic..una poverty cannot be solve or stop yet can be minimized and redefined.dri sa pinas poverty means earning less than $2/day, in industrialized countries it simply means u can't afford to buy luxury car,multi-million homes etc.

hyperwage theory,sounds good but we simply not in position to adapt such system.our economy is very much in the mercy of foreign investors like most SEasian countries.if government impose high wage mu-atras mga investors,remember mo few months ago nag-wage hike ta foreign employers angal dayon kay we are the highest wage earner na daw in the region nya threat dayon na mapugos sila pull-out.government wage will not do sab,simply na our government budget cannot support it.

mka-adapt lng ta ini if una our country will be free from external debt kay mao jud nay gakaon sa atong income and same time crippling our economic growth. since nagaid atong nasud sa utang sa international community itoy2x lng jud ta sa ila mga demands kay reliant man kau ta nila.most sa ato industry gi-dominate sa foreign capitalists.government funded projects utang sab nah clouded with all sorts of hocus pocus..sa part sa government,unclear kau ila plan how to propel our economy,to provide basic services,implement law & order and incapable to unite our country.sa citizen side sab,we are simply uncooperative.maybe due to lack of information or simply lack of interest.kalabanan sab nato irresponsable.let's talk of corruption,tama to isa ka istoryan dri who said na its the petty corruption that jeopardise the whole situation.but why is there petty corruption anyway? its simply because ato sab nang gina-tolerate.ex lang mu-claim ta ug NBI clearance,nganong mubayad man ta ug inside fixer para ma-hassle free ta? simpleng bagay lang nah siguro but look at the impact of such action.wla ra ni sa kumingking sa real corruption that's going on but it all started from this simple favor di bah? Pinoy are not hardworking people,c'mon let's face it ,no offense hah but this is a shameful truth as a society tamaran ta na mga tawo tapos kinaiya na nato ang pagkasuyaan nya materialistic pa jud. ayaw mo kasuko hah usahay sakit jud ipanawong sa ato ang kamatuoran.y i said tamaran ta? lantawa lng gud nang atong palibot gubot na hugaw pa,ngano man? kay dli man ta ganahan mulihok na wlay sweldo,nya kinsa may mu-sweldo nimo kun kaugalingon nimong balay ug tugkaran imo limpyuhan? kining mga tawong wlay trabaho kusod kau mangita alibi nganong muhimo sila ug krimen.jobless but kusog kau mutungga ngadto sa kanto,kada-adlaw hubog.magpatawg ang barangay ug meeting dli mu-attend if wla libre snacks or incentive.proud kau ta sa atong "bayanihan spirit" but i wonder lng naa bya gyud ta anah? murag kalabanan man nko mkita suya2x system man.if kita tang ni-asenso atong silingan pangitaan dayon ug sayop nya i-chismis dayon samot pa magmaoy-maoy dayon.materialistic? yes,most of us buy things not because we need it.ex lang ang celfone,do we really need it? or is it just peer pressure that drives us to have one? kining mga electronic gadgets,appliances,vehicle.nothing wrong to have these things kana if u can afford them w/o drowning urself in debt. now,ask urself what will you do once ul earn big? im sure a lot wud say i will buy a nice place in a high-end condo community,buy a car,get the best audio-video system,etc...naa kaha mkahunahuna ug engaging in business na mka-provide job sa ako mga silingan or set up ug foundation to provide free education or say set up centers or institution for intellectuals...of course daghan jud mu-favor sa former,after all its my hard earned money so dapat ako lng i-enjoy..mao ra sab ni sa mga government officials,dli lalim mugasto minilyon during election mao once seated na mubawi jud sila sa gasto with multiple% interest pa...lisod kau noh? it all goes down to every individual,naa ra nato if we want to better our condition...as for me,i keep on encouraging people around me to discover their potential in venturing to business..most of them say na we are hopeless, then hopeless jud ang usa ka tawo kay bisan ambition wla cya.positive thinker people influence as many as u can so ul spread positive energy sa nyo community.sa mga tawong feeling hopeless and negative thinker,try to open ur mind to possibilities opportunities might just be around you.and one simple thing sab na mahimo nato is to respect and love our country,it is our identity the only place we can call home bisan unsa pa kagubot.sa katong wla pa ka-experience mu-abroad ma-realize ra nah ninyo once ma-foreigner unya mo in one's country.try lng gud mo google forums how the world see us Filipinos, basi mka-spark diay nah sa inyo national pride. MABUHAY! kapayapaan.

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  #162  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:58 PM
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al1974,
what industries/sectors have your worked in
what is you educational discipline

and why are you convinced Hyperwage will HELP rather than DESTROY your sector?

have you reached supervisory or mgr level?



Quote:
Originally Posted by al1974 View Post
Heyperwage theory says:


But for now, let’s continue our survey of more ways by Hyperwage Theory elegantly handles non-economic problems.

Rebellion
The root of rebellion is injustice; the root of injustice is poverty. You solve poverty, you solve rebellion. No need for negotiation panels, no need for a strong army, no need for more armored trucks.

Consider the current strategy of our government, how many billions spent over the last 30 years on a destructive war against our own people who only original sin was poverty?

Think. If all those billions were released to the poorest of the poor in terms of minimum wage, and then subjected to the multiplier and accelerator effects, our economy will be in an upward spiral.

This is the reason, I view our current strategy with the rebels as useless. The rebels are not even asking for P20,000 per month, but Hyperwage is giving it to them.
Isn’t Hyperwage great?

Employee forever?
A bank manager does not want to be an employee forever. He is a prime candidate as an entrepreneur but he doesn’t have capital because his salary is just slightly above that of the domestic helper in Singapore, and all our equipments are purchased from Singapore and Taiwan and Hong Kong or Europe, all hyperwage countries, how can he start this own business?

With Hyperwage, many middle managers will be able to save enough capital to pursue his own business dreams.

Currently, you have to wait till you are 65 years old to retire and use your pension funds to start your own business. The prime of your productivity has long since elapsed.

Export quality
One furniture exporter told me his business will close down under Hyperwage. Of course, not. Right now, his export quality products are affordable only by the First World countries.

Given Hyperwage, the domestic market will be as powerful as the export market. Does Intel or Microsoft export abroad to survive? No, they became successful in their own domestic markets.

Why can’t it be the same for the furniture industry?

Shift your minds. Don’t look at the expense side, look at the revenue side. You can increase both your volumes and your prices under a Hyperwage regime.

And another non-economic benefit, our homes will have high quality furniture, unlike the current cheap ones we have.

Hyperwage will build and expand not destroy the cottage industries and any other industry for that matter.

All these benefits and above in just one single stroke. Give the worker their true value of labor based on world standards. Isn’t Hyperwage elegant?

Medical care
It costs about P5,000 for a normal delivery in hyperwage Hong Kong but about P50,000 here in this country? Why? I don’t know.

The Hong Kong government has so much money from the taxes of the people who are paid at hyperwage salaries, and no corruption, such that they can subsidize medical care for the general public.

And did I tell you their public hospitals look like four-star hotels?
And for those who want private hospitals they can enroll for medical insurance, which they can afford because they have hyperwage salaries. Can you imagine our own country’s insurance industry boom under hyperwage?

Our medicines are inordinately expensive compared to our incomes because they are invented and copyrighted and priced based on the pharma firm’s hyperwage costs. We are paying for these hyperwage-priced medical products (NMR machines, X-rays) using our Third World wages, isn’t this bad economic strategy?

Public services
I have written some time ago the time when one Christmas I entered the newly opened Hong Kong central library. I actually wept. I did not cry. I wept. It’s like a five-star hotel, with wall to wall carpeting, elevators, escalators, and interior decoration. Internet plug points are free if you bring your laptop or you can use their computers. The books are hardbound glossy book paper. Only the novels are paperbacks.

Our people deserve such high quality of service as much as these Hongkongers do.

With an economically empowered public, we will demand world-class service after all we will be paying world-class taxes too. In Hong Kong, income tax is maxed at only 15% even if you earn $1 billion.

Political enrichment
Actually, if you still don’t realize it, we are partially in Hyperwage status but only for the politicians with their travel expenses and huge allowances and kickbacks from the projects.

This is grossly unfair, and the only way I see to correct this situation is to slice some of those extremely egregious allowances and give it back to the people in terms of high wages.

Vote buying
Speaking of politics, why do well our votes for a kilo of rice, or even for P500? Are we that poor such that we are willing to sell our political souls to the highest bidder?
How are we addressing this issue?

I think only Hyperwage will solve this problem realistically. Yes, realistically. An economically empowered people are usually morally upright people.
I have to go now. More non-economic solutions next time. chool.

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  #163  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:07 PM
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education. the government should improve the educational system in the country and by increasing the appropriations for education in the national budget. IMO
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  #164  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:45 PM
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stop the patchwork... start from the ground up.
in a system that rewards competition... dili mawala ang corruption.
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  #165  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:44 PM
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- There's no such term as GEOTHERIUM.
- We cant kill.
- We have no money to develop deuterium
- Church interference is not a major economic factor of our poverty
- Your last point, I completely agree, and that is called Hyperwage Theory



Quote:
Originally Posted by melvenb View Post
1. Kill all corrupt people in the government, from Top to Bottom.. Convicting them is not enough coz they can be paroled and go back to their service again. Corruption can lead to a lot of negative things to a country, directly and indirectly.

2. Utilize and invest on developing all our natural resources especially our geothermal, solar and wind resources and other yet to be discoverd resources like Geotherium ((in case you dont know, this is a very good fuel and perhaps the future fuel which is available in Philippines, particularly in Palawan)) . Thus, we wont have any problems with power. Huge sources of electric energy can be use convert water to hydorgen through electrolysis. We can replace petroleum products with hydrogen which is more environment friendly. With this, we wont have to rely on expensive imported fuel in which the government is benefiting a lot .

3. Prevent the Religious Communities from "too much" interference with the governtment. Although a lot of people would disagree, but it's a fact that the Religious Communities in our country are sometimes hindrance to our growth and development. One good example is family planning. Religious Communities, (particularly Roman Catholic) dont agree with modern method of family planning which is one of the major causes of the rapid increase of population. Too large population means too much responsibilty for the government.

4. PAY ALL THE PROFESSIONALS WITH COMPETITIVE SALARIES SO THAT WE WONT GO ABROAD!!. Only few skilled people are left in the Philippines because most of the talented and skilled ones go abroad.

.. og daghan pa, kapoy nalng og type..

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